99 Dakoter

[Dr.Jass]

Always fun working on something assembled by a gorilla. Is the pipe with the O2 sensor the converter?

Regardless, your best course of action here is to use a chain-type pipe cutter to the right of the clamp pinch, as close as possible. Once that's separated, I'd probably use a cut-off wheel in a die grinder to get the remnant off the pipe to the left. You don't even need to cut it all the way through; you could make a nice groove and chisel it the rest of the way.

It's not as easy as simply throwing a band clamp at butted pipes. You will have a leak that way. You need some overlap, just not as much as with a saddle clamp. The advantage is that the band clamp has greater surface area to grab and won't kink the pipe.

 

[69.5CUDA]

personal ive always just used the angle grinder and cut a "notch" on both sides only as far back as i need to, then work a screwdriver in to make it wide enough to get a chissle in..its not an effort to split them but to "flair" the cuts out a bit, cant say ive ever had it not eventualy work but it is time consuming and can be re saddle clamped

 

[b-body-bob]

Is the pipe with the O2 sensor the converter?

No that's the head pipe. The sensor is stuck too so I have to buy a new one.

it is time consuming

Amen on that.

I cut the head pipe off, then used the sawzall just like in the video above and eventually split it and worked it out.

The head pipe goes in the converter pipe up to that clamp pinch. I tried whaling on it with the BFH but it's not going in. The chain cutter might be the bee's knees when you're standing up, but using it laying on your back is not fun and doesn't seem to make any progress on that pipe at all.

If I can rent an expander from the parts store when I go buy the O2 sensor I'll try to open that up more. I didn't measure it but it's about 1/2" or so in the pipe so if I can't get an expander I'll get a band clamp and give that a go. I'm trying to keep it to where I can get it back apart because the muffler's not long for this world either.

I'm off work today - president's day - so hopefully I'll be able to wrap it all up today.

 

[Dr.Jass]

One of these would take out that kink. Just make sure you get one for the right pipe diameter range. Generally, once you think you've got it out, you have to turn it just enough so the notches are now centered where the dies were, then repeat. It ain't perfect but it works.

 

[b-body-bob]

I borrowed one of those from Advance and got it in further. Then it was stuck so I put a clamp at the end and called it good.

The O2 sensor ain't coming out. Cherry red, PB blaster, and it just rounds off. Is an O2 sensor pretty much an O2 sensor? They're cheap on e-bay but I can't be sure what I'm looking at will work (upstream, 3.9 V6)
For example I found one that said it was specific for

Only fit: Club Cab; Position: Upstream Right Oxygen Sensor; QTY: 1 Requiredless

1999

Dodge

Dakota

R/T Extended Cab Pickup 2-Door

5.9L 360Cu. In. V8 GAS OHV Naturally Aspirated

Comparing part #s from rockauto, I don't see any difference between a 3.9 and a 5.9

They're pricey from local parts stores.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Electrochemically speaking, yes: An oxygen sensor is, for the most part, an oxygen sensor. By "for the most part" I'm excluding wideband sensors because they're a totally different animal. Except they're not. It's complicated. We'll not tread where dragons be.

Every non-WB O2 sensor in the last 25 years has been a four-wire unit. Those four wires are heater positive, heater negative, sensor ground, and V+ (its output) which is generated via a chemical reaction to exhaust gases. The heater is to get the sensor up to working temperature much more quickly than simply stewing in exhaust gases will allow. Regardless of sensor manufacturer, vehicle application, etc. the V+ will always give the same reading in the same mixture. Period. It's carved in stone at the top of Chemistry Mountain. Remember the GM single-wire sensors from the feedback-carburetor era (early '80s)? Take a 4-wire sensor, strip out the heater circuit and trust the sensor threads to create a ground, and that's what you get. That single wire is V+, and it too reads exactly the same as a newer 4-wire sensor once it's up to temperature.

Wideband sensors have a minimum of 5 wires and require a controller for the pump circuit. Like I said, dragons. If you think the sensor for your Dakota is spendy, a wideband's price tag will drain the blood from your face.

With that out of the way...

This is a situation where you sorta get what you pay for. Normally, I'd suggest the NTK because in my experience those are the best-quality O2 sensors on the market while Bosch are unequivocally the worst. This was discussed elsewhere on the board recently so I won't re-hash it. The problem is, NTK discontinued the sensor for your truck, or possibly superseded it (a new number is shown but I can find nothing on it). The old number was 23099 and the new number is supposedly 23179. Availability seems to be nonexistent on both, with the latter number hard to even find proof of existence. So that's that.

Denso and Delphi sensors have been pretty good for me, as have Standard Motor Products although the latter seem to have largely removed themselves from the O2 game. The Denso number is 234-4077; it's been superseded to a "universal" but the originals are still around for now. That one would set you back about $40 in my store. The Delphi (ES20044) is still available; our warehouse is out but they're on order. It's about $10 more. Yes, universal O2 sensors are a thing, but not recommended--and possibly what you'd get ordering online.

What's strange is that both the Denso and Delphi sensors interchance to an NTK 23039, which their buyer's guide says stops at '97. Truth be known, it's probably a keyway change in the plug or lead-length difference. I didn't dig into it that far, but I can if'n you'd like.

One thing worth mentioning is the fragility of O2 sensors. Yes, they live in excessive heat just fine, but they're very prone to cracking--far less rugged than a spark plug. They don't do well being drop-kicked here from China for some fly-by-night eBayer to hawk inexpensively, only to ship it again. In my experience, eBay warranties aren't worth the pixels with which they're written. That being said, if you can find the discontinued NTK or a screamin' deal on a genuine Denso or Delphi online, it might be worth the chance. Might. If it shows up loose inside a larger box or shipped in the retail package only (both of which Amazon seems wont to do), don't expect much longevity. Personally, I'd suggest a local purchase for just that reason: If it's bad right out of the box, they have to replace it, simple as that. No shipping charges, no waiting on two-way shipping. I put a lot of value in avoiding that kind of bullshit.

 

[b-body-bob]

I ordered the cheapest Bosch because if it works at all it probably works better than the one with 170k miles on it.

I thought about looking for a black iron plug in the plumbing department, but I didn't know what would happen if the wire was disconnected, as compared to being connected to a dead sensor.

I also bought a slip-fit band clamp to better support the head pipe to cat con connection.

 

[69.5CUDA]

if your on a 2 o2 sensor syetem(hnestly im not going to dig to find out) you can get an extension for the second o2 to fool it into "reading cat is ok" they are cheep and are little more than an extension with a miniture cat in them..DO NOT run one on the header or pre cat as they can make you run rich or lean as hell depending on what way you ecu likes to tweak..but the post cat unit is 90% of the time only theire for emissions sake

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW it has 2 sensors. The dash is lit up like Christmas. We don't have emission rules in WV other than don't go down the road looking like James Bond making a get-away. Or at least don't push your luck doing it too often.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I ordered the cheapest Bosch because if it works at all it probably works better than the one with 170k miles on it.

Make sure there's anti-seize compound on the threads. It'll be much easier next time, and that'll be soon enough.

I thought about looking for a black iron plug in the plumbing department, but I didn't know what would happen if the wire was disconnected, as compared to being connected to a dead sensor.

There's no hardware-store plug that fits. You'd have to spend four times as much and get a proper O2 bung plug. Regardless, when open circuit the computer will protect the engine by running rich all the time. It'll dramatically increase the life of the converter by keeping it cool with all the unburned fuel you're dumping into the exhaust. Expect miserable fuel economy as a result.

It's not 1982 anymore. The O2 sensor is your friend, the upstream in particular.

 

[Dr.Jass]

if your on a 2 o2 sensor syetem(hnestly im not going to dig to find out) you can get an extension for the second o2 to fool it into "reading cat is ok" they are cheep and are little more than an extension with a miniture cat in them..DO NOT run one on the header or pre cat as they can make you run rich or lean as hell depending on what way you ecu likes to tweak..but the post cat unit is 90% of the time only theire for emissions sake

Every car 1996 and newer has a downstream O2 sensor. As you said, it's primarily there to monitor converter efficiency. The bypass/jumper harnesses do not work. O2 sensors create their own voltage via chemical reaction, they do not rely on vehicle power. There's no variable resistance to ground nor is there a V+ feed wire to an O2 sensor. I assume some put a resistor between the 12V+heater circuit and the PCM's V+ sense wire connection to simulate ideal voltage. It seems like it would work, but it doesn't. First, the PCM expects to see a voltage swing going above and below stoichiometric rather than a constant voltage. If it stays at constant "perfect" voltage, it trips the Check Engine light. The computer recognizes that the downstream mixture reading is not responding to commanded changes. Another issue is that not all vehicles keep the heater circuit energized all the time. Once the catalyst is up to temperature it's not needed. Now you have 0 voltage on your sense wire. That will also trigger the Check Engine light.

After the bypass harnesses were failures, we messed with all manner of bypass methods on my friend Andy's 1999 Sierra 1500 2WD, including monitoring the O2's output voltage-reading oscillations with a scan tool and a stopwatch. I built an emulator circuit using a 555 timer to duplicate what we saw on the Verus. It was close--really, really close--but ultimately the PCM turned on the Check Engine light yet again. As it happens, if the two O2 sensors don't synch up correctly in their oscillations while the mixture is adjusted, the PCM sees it as an issue: "Something's horse-shit here." We were both verklempt and impressed.

Ironically enough, Andy decided it was more effort than it was worth, and just reconnected the still-installed downstream O2, even though the converter was gone. The Check Engine light came and went for about two weeks, then went out for good. Three years later he told me it had never returned for sensor or catalyst readings, but it still worked for other issues like misfires. WTF?! I've no idea why the PCM apparently abandoned it entirely.

 

[69.5CUDA]

if you look up 90 deg o2 adapter youll find what im talking about and they DO WORK..but only as #2...they were created mostly for running a "test pipe" IE no cat at all
its litteraly a short tube with its own cat in it that you then thread an o2 sensor into..the o2 sensor has its own cat to sniff thru and yet your pipes dont have need for a cat

 

[b-body-bob]

Make sure there's anti-seize compound on the threads.

It'll be much easier next time, and that'll be soon enough.

You're assuming the check engine light's going to go off and I'll be able to tell a sensor has failed.

 

[74DartSport]

CEL illuminated on my daily, P0420 cat con underperforming. Ignored for months, cleared it myself last week and hasn’t returned.
I have adventures in a TPMS light on a Hyundai too.

 

[b-body-bob]

I never would've believed it but the CEL is off.

I'm going to end up replacing the whole exhaust system sooner than later. There's a small hole in the catcon pipe that I didn't notice, and hitting it with the MIG is more likely to make the hole bigger than smaller. From there on back it's all just as bad as the piece before. I'm not in a hurry to mess with it.

I put a band clamp on it, and because the pipes don't exactly line up at this point, I couldn't get the piece that goes between the two sides in there. The bolts wouldn't go through side to side with it there. Dunno if that's going to make a huge difference or not. One pipe is inside the other one so it doesn't necessarily need held together. I trust it more than that saddle clamp at the very end of the pipe due to limited insertion.

It's the piece with two concave sides

FWIW the O2 sensor came with anti-seize on it. I added more.

I ended up replacing the battery. It came with a side-post and adapters, with corroded to death cable ends. By the time I cut that back to wire, the feed to the relay box was short and the cables wouldn't reach. Instead of hunting all over town for heavy gauge wire and an industrial ring terminal, I decided to find the shortest battery that otherwise fit to give me more slack.

The shortest one was an el-cheapo, and I was still surprised it came with only a 90 day warranty and the parts guy called it a refurb. I asked about the next one up, which was a Die-Hard for $20 more. That came with just a 1-year warranty. I figured if it lasts 90 it oughta last a year so I stayed with the cheapie. If the next one would've been a normal 3 year battery warranty I would've paid up fir the extra warranty.

Anyway, what happened to battery warranties? The price went up and the warranty got shorter. What a screw job.

 

[b-body-bob]

I noticed that there's a single "dash" that lights up on the radio display, power on or power off doesn't matter. Before I replace it I wondered if anybody knows if that's a sign I need to do something to activate it because the battery's been out, or if it's just D-E-D dead.

FWIW I looked at the Y2K FSM and it mostly points me to the owner's manual for info.

 

[Dr.Jass]

We sell reconditioned batteries, "out of date" batteries, and brandy-new ones. The reconditioned batteries only have a 30-day warranty because they start life as a used (core) battery. The "out of date" batteries were made more than six months ago but are still brand-new. Those have a 1-year warranty. Our new batteries have a two-year full-replacement warranty, and no pro-rata (a.k.a. prorate) warranty.

The reason the pro-rata warranty went away was because it made more enemies than friends. Let's say you buy a battery with a 7-year (84 month) prorate and a 2-year full replacement. If it fails at 25 months, you should get most of the price of the battery covered, right? Nope. The prorate started on day one, while you were still in the full-replacement category, so two years of it are a waste. Additionally, the calculation was not simply the price of the battery divided by the number of months. It's algebraic rather than arithmatic, similar to the interest on a mortgage, using on the remaining value of the battery rather than replacement cost--how's that for arbitrary?! By the time you're at half the warranty period, you're only saving a few bucks ($25 maybe?) over an outright new purchase. The calculation is based on the price you originally paid, not the price of the new battery that's significantly more expensive than its 4-year-old counterpart was.

So you bring in a battery with half its pro rata warranty left, and you still pay nearly full price for its replacement. Now you're pissed, and you're pretty sure those guys at the parts store f__ked ya. Well, if it makes you feel any better, we got no credit from the manufacturer even for the measly credit we gave you. We lost too, just more. Because of that, pro rata was recently eliminated industry-wide. None of the three manufacturers of automotive lead-acid batteries have honored it for a long time.

Bonus? Of course. If you warranty a battery, the replacement has only the warranty remaining on the first one. Warranty the battery at 70 months, and your new battery has only 14 months of pro-rata warranty based on the "remaining value" of your failed unit. If it fails in six months, you'd be lucky to get $5 off the new battery. If you're persistent about those few pennies, though, rest assured: Battery #3 will have no warranty whatsoever.

I stopped doing pro rata warranties more than 10 years ago. I tell the customer the full-replacement warranty period and that there's nothing more. It's not worth the yelling. Simple, straightforward rules with no grey area and fewer irate customers? Sounds like a win-win to me.

As far as the price increase, thank your local environmentalist. It's not nearly as easy to mine lead as it once was thanks to rabid tree-huggers. That also explains the high core value on old batteries.

I noticed that there's a single "dash" that lights up on the radio display, power on or power off doesn't matter. Before I replace it I wondered if anybody knows if that's a sign I need to do something to activate it because the battery's been out, or if it's just D-E-D dead.

What brand and type of radio? Chrysler or aftermarket? CD, cassette, AM 2-watt Music Master?

 

[b-body-bob]

We sell reconditioned batteries, "out of date" batteries, and brandy-new ones. The reconditioned batteries only have a 30-day warranty because they start life as a used (core) battery. The "out of date" batteries were made more than six months ago but are still brand-new. Those have a 1-year warranty. Our new batteries have a two-year full-replacement warranty, and no pro-rata (a.k.a. prorate) warranty.

The reason the pro-rata warranty went away was because it made more enemies than friends. Let's say you buy a battery with a 7-year (84 month) prorate and a 2-year full replacement. If it fails at 25 months, you should get most of the price of the battery covered, right? Nope. The prorate started on day one, while you were still in the full-replacement category, so two years of it are a waste. Additionally, the calculation was not simply the price of the battery divided by the number of months. It's algebraic rather than arithmatic, similar to the interest on a mortgage, using on the remaining value of the battery rather than replacement cost--how's that for arbitrary?! By the time you're at half the warranty period, you're only saving a few bucks ($25 maybe?) over an outright new purchase. The calculation is based on the price you originally paid, not the price of the new battery that's significantly more expensive than its 4-year-old counterpart was.

So you bring in a battery with half its pro rata warranty left, and you still pay nearly full price for its replacement. Now you're pissed, and you're pretty sure those guys at the parts store f__ked ya. Well, if it makes you feel any better, we got no credit from the manufacturer even for the measly credit we gave you. We lost too, just more. Because of that, pro rata was recently eliminated industry-wide. None of the three manufacturers of automotive lead-acid batteries have honored it for a long time.

Bonus? Of course. If you warranty a battery, the replacement has only the warranty remaining on the first one. Warranty the battery at 70 months, and your new battery has only 14 months of pro-rata warranty based on the "remaining value" of your failed unit. If it fails in six months, you'd be lucky to get $5 off the new battery. If you're persistent about those few pennies, though, rest assured: Battery #3 will have no warranty whatsoever.

I stopped doing pro rata warranties more than 10 years ago. I tell the customer the full-replacement warranty period and that there's nothing more. It's not worth the yelling. Simple, straightforward rules with no grey area and fewer irate customers? Sounds like a win-win to me.

As far as the price increase, thank your local environmentalist. It's not nearly as easy to mine lead as it once was thanks to rabid tree-huggers. That also explains the high core value on old batteries.

My experience with batteries has typically been it will last a week longer than the warranty. But at least it lasted. If that holds true, this one will be a goner in 100 days.

FWIW I'm pretty confident it will probably last a couple of winters or so.

What brand and type of radio? Chrysler or aftermarket? CD, cassette, AM 2-watt Music Master?

Factory AM/FM cassette.

 

[Dr.Jass]

My experience with batteries has typically been it will last a week longer than the warranty. But at least it lasted. If that holds true, this one will be a goner in 100 days.

FWIW I'm pretty confident it will probably last a couple of winters or so.

We actually had a pair of reconditioned 31-series truck/equipment batteries last 7 years bouncing through corn fields. Most of the employees buy those instead of new. They've been great overall, but every now and again a bad one slips through.

Factory AM/FM cassette.

Yeah, just go ahead and pitch that one. Those basic radios don't have any kind of security or activation code and it's not worth fixing. Just about any factory radio from 1984-'99 should work, except Viper, Prowler and possibly minivans. It's the standard upper right side, lower left corner mount pattern Chrysler adapted with the 1975 B-bodies and stuck with through 1993 with the B-vans. If you find one with two 7-pin flat connectors on the back, one grey and one black, it's a plug-in job. There are dozens of variations on that radio chassis.

 

[b-body-bob]

Thanks. I figured it was junk but thought I'd ask. IIRC the limited info in the FSM shows it having flat connectors. The hassle would be removing the dash bezel AFAICT. Mine is not broken yet.