Rusty's not very quiet cuda progress

[RUSTY Cuda]

See if this works, it's running, doesn't start too easy, has some funky clunky noises seem to be front of motor area.
hopefully it can only get better!

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

this one sounded much better hope I get close!

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

K, watched a few timing videos all the balancers had a nice slot, mine has numbers, 0 up to 40 I think do I assume correctly that I would use the 0 & get that to 5* before on the cover?

 

[b-body-bob]

K, watched a few timing videos all the balancers had a nice slot, mine has numbers, 0 up to 40 I think do I assume correctly that I would use the 0 & get that to 5* before on the cover?

Mine is like that. Use zero on one or the other one, Just be sure you don't confuse BTDC with ATDC.

Vacuum's going to be low until you give it the timing it wants.

 

[b-body-bob]

can I put a coat of ye ole indian on the metal washer maybe that will seal it, I had tightened it twice to no avail, afraid to break something?

Doesn't gasoline melt that stuff? Maybe try a second metal washer?

Ran the distributor & A/C vac lines up to the carb, I also have a port on the manifold fitting I could use, I think the A/C may go there?

I don't envy you. I would plug off everything but the distributor and fuggitabout it, but then I think A/C is an unnecessary waste of HP and would just take all that off too

this last carb port with red cap, what should be on here?

That looks like a bowl vent, probably part of the cleaner air package or whatever it was called back then.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

I'm too old to be cruising with my sweaty back sticking to the seat!

I need a gasket glue that can withstand gas?

 

[68R/T]

Disconnect the timing light and put it back in the drawer. Then adjust timing to get your best idle. Final timing can be done when driving at full temp. While cruising at city speed give a quick stab of about half throttle. If it pings, back off the timing a couple deg. No more ping, perfect, that's what the engine wants.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

That's gonna be a while before I can drive it, don't even have brakes or insurance yet, now that I think I have the marks to set it to for at least a base I'll see how that goes, thinking of trying that gasket glue tomorrow so at least I can play with it, see if & how long it lasts.

OH forgot to mention, the no action from the key came back, got out the new igi. switch & was about to hook it up when I noticed the old one unplugged awful easy, plugged it back in & it locked this time, key worked, so I hope that's the end of that crap!

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Diversion to give me a break from a frustrating car!
don't think it ever went total, but at least I caught a little of it.

big dark cloud came in at the end.
you have to click on to enlarge the first 2 picks to see anything!

 

[b-body-bob]

At work this AM a NASA email went around saying don't point your camera at the eclipse without pointing it through a pair of glasses.

I've taken the time before to make a pinhole camera to look at it. It's confusing to me why people make a big deal out of it. But then, people do that about everything more and more these days. Terminal boredom or something.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Well I was just trying to forget about the pesky car for a few minuets, I had a really dark pair of sun glassed (the ones the eye dr. gives after they open up your pupils) I used em for welding & had no ill effects?
phone I just shot it, with the cloud cover half the time it didn't seem very bright at all, anyway back to the haunted car!.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

First up, thanks 69, the pledge seems to be holding the carb we had a good storm after I did it & it got no worse! Now back to trying to tune this monster.
Marked off the 5BTDC& the 0 on the balancer if you enlarge you can see the 0 under the right side.On reg idle I could not get it anywhere near 5, couldn't even see the marks on the balancer, on fast idle I was able to get it there, made a video but couldn't see the marks, but at this fast idle (video to follow) had it right on, but as soon as I take it off fast idle it stalls.

I played quite a while no light just moving the distributor around with never able to get a steady reg idle.


So is there a way to raise the reg idle a bit I messed with the air feuk screws a bit but didn't see to raise it?
View attachment 20240408_151724.mp4
Don't have the tach in yet so I have no idea of rpm's?

 

[Dr.Jass]

Any/all tuning must be done with the engine fully warmed up to normal operating temperature. Period.

Couple questions did come up, what marks to I go by to set the timing/ 0 on the wheel to the 5btdc on the casing?

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. Baseline it with the "0" on the timing cover aligned with the "0" on the damper. If the damper has degrees marked on it, those will let you set timing beyond the meager range of what's on the cover. Numbers on the damper should align with "0" on the cover if you're doing it that way. Otherwise, if your balancer simply has a line, then you align that mark on the scale of the timing cover. I toss the OE spec right out the window and usually use 12-15° BTDC on a street engine (although I've run far, far more).

Remember, you must set the timing with NO vacuum to the distributor. Remove the hose to the vacuum advance and plug it with a golf tee, screw, etc. so it's not a vacuum leak.

You must get your timing settled prior to messing around with any fuel tuning.

Vacuum is low barley 4" ish, does go up a little with a little gas?

This is at least 10" less than I'd expect to see out of this engine. It should be 15-18". Have you set the idle speed and idle mixture screws yet?

Don't have the tach in yet so I have no idea of rpm's?

Until you have a tach you're just wasting time. You must have a tach to set both idle speed and idle mixture.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

K, I couldn't get to 5 so as it stands 0 is a dream.
there were a few times on reg idle (yesterday when I somehow got it to idle, off high idle) where I could barley see the mark way up a little above 10BTDC.
for some reason I couldn't get it to idle at all today.

where do you raise the reg idle, if I could get that up a bit I could maybe mess around a little more, it would help if I even had a clue of tuning an engine!
K just took another look, is low & high idle the same screw, that may be why I can't get the reg idle today I backed that off some when messing with the timing.

Oh yea, I pulled the distributor vac line off at the carb, but didn't plug it, I'll plug it tomorrow when I try again!

mixture screws are each about 1 1/2 turns out, messed with them a little didn't seem to change much.
If I'm right on the idle screw I will set that back up a bit tomorrow.

Gotta see if I can hook up the tack under the hood, to find out where I'm at!

 

[Dr.Jass]

You can't do anything with either timing or idle until the car is 100% up to operating temperature. Since you've got an electric choke thermostat, the choke must be fully opened by its thermostat--not your thumb--before you can get the idle nailed. This is carved in stone at the top of the mountain, so anything you do whilst the car isn't at thermostat temp will simply frustrate you.

The best thing to do here is start from zero.

You say you can't get down to 5, much less 0° on the timing. Why? Turning the distributor clockwise retards timing, while turning it counter-clockwise advances it. The easy way to remember this is that the vacuum-advance nipple points in the direction of advance. Is the distributor hitting something? You said you got it to 10°, which is perfectly acceptable and actually a bit less than what I suggested. Ignore the factory timing spec. It's nonsense unless you plan to tow a 28' Airstream up Pike's Peak in mid-August with three passengers and a week's worth of luggage for all. If it's just going to be you and the wife most of the time with no trailer or trunk full of lead, 15° is perfectly safe. I wouldn't even consider running less than 10° initial timing. If you can get it to 10°, leave it there, tighten the clamp and don't worry about it for the moment. Leave the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged for now.

OK, on to preliminary idle settings, both mixture and speed.

Turn the idle mixture screws in until you feel them seat. Don't crank on them; you'll deform the carb passages. When you feel firm resistance to tightening, they're seated. Back them out 1/2 turn and leave them alone until later.

Now do a preliminary idle-speed setting. Open the choke fully by hand, and block it so it stays fully open (I usually just put a screwdriver down the bore). Rotate the fast-idle cam, highlighted in green below, clockwise until the fast-idle screw no longer touches it. You may need to open the throttle very slighty to do this, but don't open it very far at all--just enough so the cam can move without dragging itself along the idle screw.




With the throttle released, you can now do a preliminary curb (hot) idle setting with the curb-idle screw, shown below. Tighten until it just touches the throttle arm, then another 2-3 turns.




OK, once that's done you'll want to remove whatever was holding the choke open and open the throttle fully (WFO) to set the choke. The choke should be fully closed, and the fast-idle screw should once again be on the cam, situated about where it is in the first picture. Back it off its cam, then re-tighten until it just touches the cam, then another 1-2 turns.
This can be a bit of a sonofabitch, because it faces down--kind of a stupid design, really. Removing the throttle-lever extension might make this easier. I'd suggest using the appropriate 1/4"-drive screwdriver bit, the shorty ones they sell by the handful in "fishbowls" at the hardware store for fifty cents each. Use a 1/4" drive ratchet with a 1/4" socket to hold the screwdriver bit. Alternatively, you could remove the carb and do it that way, but you'll need new gaskets.




Now you're set to actually start tuning. You really want your tach for this job. Have whatever you used to adjust the fast-idle speed handy, as you'll want to fine-tune it right off the bat.

If you made the adjustments then walked away for awhile/overnight/whatever, open the throttle fully to make sure the choke is set. Start the engine. It will probably run at fairly high RPM, which it should on fast idle. Fast idle should be 1,900RPM, per the 1974 service manual. Once the fast idle is set, allow the engine to gain some temperature, cracking the throttle now and again after the needle on the dash gauge has started to move. The idle may or may not slow during this process since the curb-idle screw is still in its preliminary setting (which might be too high) so watch the fast-idle cam and screw. They should fully disengage one another once the engine's up to temperature and the choke is fully open. You may need to crack the throttle once or twice with a bit of authority to get them to disengage. If they do not disengage, figure out why and fix it. All those little linkage bits need to move freely as the choke coil on the other side of the engine is what moves them. You cannot set the curb idle until the fast-idle screw and cam are no longer contacting one another. It's possible the engine will stall, but it should not. It should still idle fairly high with the curb idle on your preliminary setting.

Now set your curb idle to ~900-1,000RPM. This isn't your final setting, but you want it to idle steadily while you set the mixture screws.

Connect your vacuum gauge to manifold vacuum, preferably at the vacuum tree behind the carb. You must have full manifold vacuum, not ported, so straight off the manifold is better than off the carb. Turn one of the idle mixture screws in whichever direction increases vacuum. The idle speed may change; that's OK--leave it for now--but only go maybe half a turn. Now adjust the other idle mixture screw in the same direction as the first, approximately the same distance. The vacuum should increase. If the idle speed has changed significantly, adjust it back down to ~900RPM. Turn the first mixture screw again, until you get the highest vacuum reading you can. If you go past it, back the screw off until the vacuum just starts to dip. Do the same with the other screw, then adjust the idle back down to 850RPM. You should end up with about the same number of turns on each screw, and you may have to back down the first to match the second when you get your highest reading. The goal here is the highest reading you can get with the mixture screws at approximately the same number of turns, and but no more than whatever your peak reading was (it will start to drop if you go too far). It sounds tedious but actually goes by pretty quickly. Once you've gotten the mixture screws set, verify or adjust your curb idle speed to 850RPM in neutral, again using the 1974 service manual recommendation.

If turning the idle-mixture screws seems to have very little or no effect, you've got a vacuum leak which you need to find and cure before trying again. You should not need to futz with the fast-idle screw much if at all, but you may find your curb idle is way off the mark after fixing the vacuum leak.

If your timing is still where you left it, you should not need to adjust it further. If you back the timing off, you will need to re-adjust both your idle mixture and your curb idle setting. Timing well beyond factory is not unusual and you don't have enough compression for detonation to be an issue, even on pump 87, unless you have a massive vacuum leak. The additional timing will give you both better performance and fuel economy.

Reconnect your vacuum-advance hose and you're done.
______________________

Gasket shellac doesn't get along well with fuel. The only readily-available proper gasket sealant that is fuel-resistant of which I'm aware is Permatex High Tack. It's very thin (I use the spray stuff on every intake gasket I install) so if your gasket's not compressing fully it probably won't help. Seal-All is fuel-proof, but it can be a bit messy (it's rather watery). That being said, it does work. The problem is that it can only be applied wet--you're basically gluing the fitting and gasket into the carb--and it dries as hard as rock. You must wait until it fully cures--hours--before you can check to see if it worked. If not, godspeed getting it off anything to which it adhered and starting again. The stuff can't be reasoned with once it's dry. In all honesty, I'm not a fan of the sealant idea a'tall.

One idea is to find a mom-and-pop type auto supply and see if they have an appropriate oil drain-plug gasket of the correct size that's a bit thicker than the steel one usually supplied with the carb. We have a slew of both fiber and petroleum-resistant vinyl ones at my store. Another option would be a PTFE (Teflon) faucet gasket, if one's available in the right diameter. It needs to be an exact fit, though. Sloppy won't cut it with straight threads.

Trying to use an O-ring is just asking for trouble. Put any such thought out of your mind. They are not designed to be compressed. It will leak, without fail. I learned that before I was old enough to vote: Holley 600, July of '88.

If your inlet fitting is not genuine Edelbrock, it may be too deep and not fully compressing the gasket before it seats. It's butchery at its finest, but you could possibly grind the "inside-the-carb" end away a bit, being very careful to clean it and file the threads back to perfection after doing so. If those threads aren't perfect, they will wreck the carb threads--aluminum's pretty soft.

I'm not a fan of stacking gaskets, but it might work.

 

[Dr.Jass]

Stupid questions: Is everything connected at the steering column? Have you checked the backup lamp bulbs? You are checking these functions with the key all the way in the "RUN" position, right? I know, it sounds insulting but the number of times I've overlooked the blatantly obvious is beyond count. I worried why the dome light didn't work in the '69 Valiant for a couple of years before I popped the lens off and found out that BrainTrust (the previous owner) had removed the friggin' bulb for some reason.
Make sure the rear ground is OK by checking continuity from one of the bulbs' bases (while installed in a socket--there should be enough visible) to that ground strap you bolted to the weld nut in the trunk. Use the ol' beep test we know and love so well. Try this up front with one of the turn-signal bulbs as well. If it's only grounded at one end of the car, weird things happen... again, I learned this on the Valiant. I had a very quiet, weird hyper-flash that was all but undetectable other than very faint clicking from the flasher. The front turn-signal/parking-lamp ground cable was corroded but it affected the rear turn signals and hazards too. The ground eyelet looked OK, but cleaning it up solved the issue. That car doesn't have side-marker lights (they're reflectors in 1969) so I can't testify as to whether those would've been affected. However, the additional draw from those would only exacerbate the effects of an insufficient ground.
The brake lamps and turn signals are essentially on the same circuit. The turn-signal switch provides an interrupted 12V on that circuit to one side of the car. Both circuits run through the column switch. If you have brake lamps, you should have turn signals. Is the flasher installed? Again, never overlook the obvious. Remember, there are two flashers in that car: one for the turn signals and another for the hazards. The turn-signal flasher is on a wiring harness that otherwise dangles in space, with two prongs. One wire is red and the other is black, both 18ga.
Reverse lamps: With the key in the "RUN" position, pull the connector off the neutral-safety switch on the transmission and make sure one of the two end positions has 12V+ on it. That 12V+ is fed directly from the fuse block. There's literally nothing else in or on the circuit: fuse block -> NSS -> reverse lamps. Remember way back up yonder when I said I'm not a fan of stacking gaskets? The wrong gasket on the NSS will literally not allow the reverse lamps to function. One other possibility? There are two switches, a long and a short style. I can't verify that they won't functionally interchange--they very well may--but the OE 1974 switch part number was 2932820. That's definitely the short switch, and the only reliable cross-reference to it I find is Standard Motor Products #NS11 or NS11T (the "T" being the budget version). The easiest way to to differentiate is the length of the hex.

Short 2932820:

Long:

Rather than screwing around with changing switches, though, I'd simply beep-test across the two outside terminals with the car in reverse. No need to have the key in "RUN" since you're not checking voltage, just continuity betwixt those two terminals. If it beeps, the switch will work, simple as that.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Tanks Jass, damn I wish you lived in the area, I'd pay top dollar for a Saturday of your help.

So the screw I messed with is the reg idle screw, that's probably why I can't get it too idle now, going out to play with that in a while & see if I can find the fast idle, just for my sanity.

will try & figure out getting my tach hooked up temp in the bay before I try all the tuning stuff.

Printing all this out for the archives & my dense brain, more adventures to follow.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

OK, some forward progress, I'll start with the video so I don't lose the link.

Timing seems best idle at around 10BTDC, idle seems a little fast but at least the vac is up around 10 now.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Now the gory details, started with the idle screw, set that & she started up & idled.
timing was around 5BTDC & sounded a little rough, moved the distributor till she smoothed out a bit & then lowered the idle a tad.
I think the temp guage moved, but I didn't look at it before, it never went above the first line, that would be a good thing if it's working.
It's charging like crazy I'll kill this new battery before I ever hit the road!


Carb choke never went wide open, this was about it.
I went around all the carb hold down bolts & tightened a bit more, no real changes there?

Only found one flasher unit, it had the black & red wires it was in that clip you informed me was supposed to hold it!
didn't check the fuses yet!
went under to check continuity on the tranny switch but she was to hot to get in there, gotta do that 1st next time out!

One other little problem, the rod that connects my fast idle had no clip or it popped off & got lost, I found a slightly bigger one & squeezed it down a bit but that popped off too. now I have a piece of wire twisted around it, seem to be holding at the moment & moves freely but I'd like to get the right clip.

Is it supposed to be a C-clip or one like on the tranny linkage?
What is it actually called?

vac around 10 now.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

See if I can figure out the tach to continue on the motor!

At least it's idling again.

Oh yea I did find the fast idle screw, boy they hid it well under there!