71ChargerRT
Well-known member
What are they? I know I have them somewhere, but I don't know where.
B/RB Oiling mods
- Thread starter 71ChargerRT
- Start date
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
We'll start with the common-sense, easy ones first.
Windage tray. Duh, right? Well, make sure yours has the vents opened wide enough. Most of the new ones I've seen from MP have the vents barely opened. They need to be open at least 3/8".
High-volume oil pump. I usually don't worry about these on small-blocks but with the B/RB's rather foolish oiling layout (we'll get to that) and ginormassive bearings, it's more of a concern. Don't go for high pressure, just high volume.
Capacity, capacity, capacity. More is always gooder, via added side kickouts or depth--just make sure the pickup shield either contacts the bottom of the pan when your done, or is within 1/16" of it. Steal the kid's Play-Doh to verify this.
Install acceleration baffles in the sump to make sure the oil stays at the pickup. If you use an aftermarket pan it will likely have these, but you can do it to a stock pan if you'd like. Just look at pictures of the aftermarket pans you're too cheap to buy, ya fuckin' chiseler.
Make sure all crank oiling holes are clean, unobstructed, and chamfered. Drill through them if necessary to clear obstructions. If you're running full-floating wrist pins, drill a 1/32" hole dead center from the top of the rod to the pin bore, then slightly chamfer that hole at the top of the rod. Make a fixture for this so it's straight and perpendicular to the pin in all directions so the path is short as possible. If you're not running floating pins, don't bother--it does nothing, and besides, you're not really trying anyhow.
Smooth any drainback areas with a die grinder and sandpaper rolls. Oil that's stuck to rough-cast surfaces ain't doing any lubricating or pressurizing. This would include the outside area of the heads "south" of the valve springs as well as the lifter valley. Some guys like to paint these areas with a coating like Glyptal to speed the oil's return even further, but there's some validity to the point that coatings insulate the iron from the oil's cooling effect. I don't think there's a wrong decision here.
No one, to my knowledge, has ever considered an oil cooler a bad idea. This not only increases oil life, it also takes some workload off the cooling system, which is probably a spectacular idea considering the space limitations for a radiator in an A-body. Every degree counts! Any external hoses for a cooler must be rated for engine oil, 100PSI or greater @ 300°F. Do not use heater hose, fuel hose, transmission hose, power-steering hose, etc. They will work for awhile and look perfect right up until they blow apart and pump out six quarts of oil faster than you can reach the key.
______________________________________
That's all that's really necessary for a typical "street" big-block with a six-grand-ish shift point, meaning it won't be spending any real time up yonder. If you're gonna spin the tits off it (6,500+ shift points) there are more mods you can make, such as...
The first and most-obvious is also not a terrible idea on a street engine, if you can do it: Drill and tap the block for a 1/2"NPT Hemi oil pickup and pan. I'm not sure if the Hemi pickup works with any other pans, nor if the Hemi pan fits an A-body. There are also aftermarket-specific 1/2" pickups. I'm sure some research can uncover the needed information. Any restriction on the pickup side is more than twice as bad as it is on the pressure side, so this is the foremost necessary mod. Be forewarned: Due to core shift, not all blocks are keen to have this done. If your block looks thin around the outside of the stock pickup threads, it's very easy to crack it attempting this mod. Grab a 1/2"NPT pipe plug before you buy anything and compare it to the threaded end of the stock 3/8"NPT pickup. It's a lot bigger--more than just 1/8"! If you crack the block attempting this, it's easier to find a new block than it is to fix it.
Get a long-ass 9/32" drill bit and drill the main bearings' oil feeds up to the passenger's side cam galley. We're talking a minimum 8" long bit here that will drill cast iron--not exactly standard hardware-store fare. Take your time; a bit like that is easy to snap. In fact, any straight pressure passage that you can drill straight through, you should, oversizing by ~1/32". Don't go nuts.
Milodon dual-pickup pan and pump. Absolutely the hot setup short of a dry sump. Not cheap, even used. It can be duplicated at home, but you should either have parts to copy or a shitload of very-clear, very-concise photos. I'd suggest scouring swap meets for complete used setups.
______________________________________
One less-popular (but quite effective) trick I did on my 440 was to drill and tap a 1/4"NPT hole in the top of the main oil passage behind the timing cover and install a fitting to convert it to a 3/8" inverted flare connection (fuel line). You're going to want a cam and gear installed for this procedure, because clearance is at a premium for this mod--you're gonna end up behind the cam gear at some point. Next, drill a hole in the front block bulkhead nearby, making sure it's large enough to pass a line nut through. In the driver's side lifter galley between the #1 and #3 lifter pairs, clear of the lifter bore, drill/tap another 1/2"NPT hole that faces straight up, and install another inverted flare adapter. Flare one end of your 3/8" hard line, install the gear-side line nut, and bend up a hard line that runs from one fitting to the other perfectly. Easy? You wish. You'll almost certainly have to pull the line back out of the engine to flare the cam-galley side, which is why the hole in the block needs to clear the nut.
What, you ax, is the purpose of this line? Well, it's like this: The B/RB oiling system has "camshaft priority" oiling, to reduce customer complaints of valvetrain noise at startup, way back when they were new. Because of this, the main bearings are fed from the cam galleys, and the passenger's side cam galley is the what the oil pump feeds directly. So, at startup, the oil has to travel from the pump, down the RH oil galley, around the back of the block, and all the way forward to the #1 exhaust lifter before any pressure will get to the main bearings. Yes, the feeds for the main are on the passenger's side, but oil just trickles down them until the (large) cam galleys are both full of pressurized oil. The hard line splits the flow off into the LH lifter galley immediately, so the pressurizes oil meets itself back by the oil-pressure sender fitting. Oil pressure reaches the mains twice as fast.
I used to have pictures of this mod, but I'll be roped if I can find 'em now. I'm not gonna lie, it's not exactly a picnic. In fact, it sucks. All your fittings need to be steel (no brass). Use pipe dope (not tape!) on the NPT threads. Pieces of teflon tape racing through your oil system are not a good thing. Also, you need to pressurize the block with the intake, timing cover, and cam gear missing to verify that it does not leak. If it leaks, make it stop. Leaks around the inverted-flare nuts cannot be fixed by any method other than re-bending the line. The inverted flare isn't seating correctly, and no amount of pipe dope, silicone sealant, anaerobic adhesive or anything else will seal it. Think "brake lines" here. There is no such thing as an "acceptable" leak.
What really sucks is you have to do this mod with the block bare, prior to cleaning for final assembly because of metal chips, etc. but you can't actually test for leaks until the engine's assembled. If it leaks, your heart wrenches being so close to buttoning it up and having to fuck with that stupid line until it doesn't leak anymore.
And now you know why it's not all that popular. It's a pain in the ass, but your oil pressure needle springs to life like a teenage boner in sweatpants while standing at the chalkboard.
Windage tray. Duh, right? Well, make sure yours has the vents opened wide enough. Most of the new ones I've seen from MP have the vents barely opened. They need to be open at least 3/8".
High-volume oil pump. I usually don't worry about these on small-blocks but with the B/RB's rather foolish oiling layout (we'll get to that) and ginormassive bearings, it's more of a concern. Don't go for high pressure, just high volume.
Capacity, capacity, capacity. More is always gooder, via added side kickouts or depth--just make sure the pickup shield either contacts the bottom of the pan when your done, or is within 1/16" of it. Steal the kid's Play-Doh to verify this.
Install acceleration baffles in the sump to make sure the oil stays at the pickup. If you use an aftermarket pan it will likely have these, but you can do it to a stock pan if you'd like. Just look at pictures of the aftermarket pans you're too cheap to buy, ya fuckin' chiseler.
Make sure all crank oiling holes are clean, unobstructed, and chamfered. Drill through them if necessary to clear obstructions. If you're running full-floating wrist pins, drill a 1/32" hole dead center from the top of the rod to the pin bore, then slightly chamfer that hole at the top of the rod. Make a fixture for this so it's straight and perpendicular to the pin in all directions so the path is short as possible. If you're not running floating pins, don't bother--it does nothing, and besides, you're not really trying anyhow.
Smooth any drainback areas with a die grinder and sandpaper rolls. Oil that's stuck to rough-cast surfaces ain't doing any lubricating or pressurizing. This would include the outside area of the heads "south" of the valve springs as well as the lifter valley. Some guys like to paint these areas with a coating like Glyptal to speed the oil's return even further, but there's some validity to the point that coatings insulate the iron from the oil's cooling effect. I don't think there's a wrong decision here.
No one, to my knowledge, has ever considered an oil cooler a bad idea. This not only increases oil life, it also takes some workload off the cooling system, which is probably a spectacular idea considering the space limitations for a radiator in an A-body. Every degree counts! Any external hoses for a cooler must be rated for engine oil, 100PSI or greater @ 300°F. Do not use heater hose, fuel hose, transmission hose, power-steering hose, etc. They will work for awhile and look perfect right up until they blow apart and pump out six quarts of oil faster than you can reach the key.
______________________________________
That's all that's really necessary for a typical "street" big-block with a six-grand-ish shift point, meaning it won't be spending any real time up yonder. If you're gonna spin the tits off it (6,500+ shift points) there are more mods you can make, such as...
The first and most-obvious is also not a terrible idea on a street engine, if you can do it: Drill and tap the block for a 1/2"NPT Hemi oil pickup and pan. I'm not sure if the Hemi pickup works with any other pans, nor if the Hemi pan fits an A-body. There are also aftermarket-specific 1/2" pickups. I'm sure some research can uncover the needed information. Any restriction on the pickup side is more than twice as bad as it is on the pressure side, so this is the foremost necessary mod. Be forewarned: Due to core shift, not all blocks are keen to have this done. If your block looks thin around the outside of the stock pickup threads, it's very easy to crack it attempting this mod. Grab a 1/2"NPT pipe plug before you buy anything and compare it to the threaded end of the stock 3/8"NPT pickup. It's a lot bigger--more than just 1/8"! If you crack the block attempting this, it's easier to find a new block than it is to fix it.
Get a long-ass 9/32" drill bit and drill the main bearings' oil feeds up to the passenger's side cam galley. We're talking a minimum 8" long bit here that will drill cast iron--not exactly standard hardware-store fare. Take your time; a bit like that is easy to snap. In fact, any straight pressure passage that you can drill straight through, you should, oversizing by ~1/32". Don't go nuts.
Milodon dual-pickup pan and pump. Absolutely the hot setup short of a dry sump. Not cheap, even used. It can be duplicated at home, but you should either have parts to copy or a shitload of very-clear, very-concise photos. I'd suggest scouring swap meets for complete used setups.
______________________________________
One less-popular (but quite effective) trick I did on my 440 was to drill and tap a 1/4"NPT hole in the top of the main oil passage behind the timing cover and install a fitting to convert it to a 3/8" inverted flare connection (fuel line). You're going to want a cam and gear installed for this procedure, because clearance is at a premium for this mod--you're gonna end up behind the cam gear at some point. Next, drill a hole in the front block bulkhead nearby, making sure it's large enough to pass a line nut through. In the driver's side lifter galley between the #1 and #3 lifter pairs, clear of the lifter bore, drill/tap another 1/2"NPT hole that faces straight up, and install another inverted flare adapter. Flare one end of your 3/8" hard line, install the gear-side line nut, and bend up a hard line that runs from one fitting to the other perfectly. Easy? You wish. You'll almost certainly have to pull the line back out of the engine to flare the cam-galley side, which is why the hole in the block needs to clear the nut.
What, you ax, is the purpose of this line? Well, it's like this: The B/RB oiling system has "camshaft priority" oiling, to reduce customer complaints of valvetrain noise at startup, way back when they were new. Because of this, the main bearings are fed from the cam galleys, and the passenger's side cam galley is the what the oil pump feeds directly. So, at startup, the oil has to travel from the pump, down the RH oil galley, around the back of the block, and all the way forward to the #1 exhaust lifter before any pressure will get to the main bearings. Yes, the feeds for the main are on the passenger's side, but oil just trickles down them until the (large) cam galleys are both full of pressurized oil. The hard line splits the flow off into the LH lifter galley immediately, so the pressurizes oil meets itself back by the oil-pressure sender fitting. Oil pressure reaches the mains twice as fast.
I used to have pictures of this mod, but I'll be roped if I can find 'em now. I'm not gonna lie, it's not exactly a picnic. In fact, it sucks. All your fittings need to be steel (no brass). Use pipe dope (not tape!) on the NPT threads. Pieces of teflon tape racing through your oil system are not a good thing. Also, you need to pressurize the block with the intake, timing cover, and cam gear missing to verify that it does not leak. If it leaks, make it stop. Leaks around the inverted-flare nuts cannot be fixed by any method other than re-bending the line. The inverted flare isn't seating correctly, and no amount of pipe dope, silicone sealant, anaerobic adhesive or anything else will seal it. Think "brake lines" here. There is no such thing as an "acceptable" leak.
What really sucks is you have to do this mod with the block bare, prior to cleaning for final assembly because of metal chips, etc. but you can't actually test for leaks until the engine's assembled. If it leaks, your heart wrenches being so close to buttoning it up and having to fuck with that stupid line until it doesn't leak anymore.
And now you know why it's not all that popular. It's a pain in the ass, but your oil pressure needle springs to life like a teenage boner in sweatpants while standing at the chalkboard.
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
Thanks! That's what I was looking for.
I have a bare '72 440 block on the shelf in my garage. I think I'll see about having it magnafluxed to make sure it's good and having it cleaned up, especially the water jackets.
This is the block I intend to use for the basis for the eventual turbo motor. Should I bore it, if it's in good shape, before or after the oil mods? Since they split between the crank and cam (correct?) should I use a girdle and or block filler up to the bottom of the core plugs? Or will it even matter?
I also have a newish 26", 3 core copper/brass C body radiator, and I have no qualms about bustin' out the grinder, nibbler or some saw and cutting up the core support to make sure I have a big enough opening to cool that beast down.
I have a bare '72 440 block on the shelf in my garage. I think I'll see about having it magnafluxed to make sure it's good and having it cleaned up, especially the water jackets.
This is the block I intend to use for the basis for the eventual turbo motor. Should I bore it, if it's in good shape, before or after the oil mods? Since they split between the crank and cam (correct?) should I use a girdle and or block filler up to the bottom of the core plugs? Or will it even matter?
I also have a newish 26", 3 core copper/brass C body radiator, and I have no qualms about bustin' out the grinder, nibbler or some saw and cutting up the core support to make sure I have a big enough opening to cool that beast down.
69.5CUDA
Blah Blah Blah
lemmy toss this out there on the rad for ya..a 73 fury rad fits in a 69 fish with the only trimming required on the ears of the rad..now mind you that was back in 91/92 i did it..and for the life of me i dont remember taking much if anything off the rad..maybe cutting off the ear side of the lowwer "slot" mounts on the rad....i didnt have an angle grinder back then so it was all hand tools
obviously you wont get full cooling thru the small a-body window but it does fit
thanx for the info doc...ill be useing all this at some point myself...course im eyeballin a BOAT aluminum oil pan..a big assed brick of a pan for a TON of oil..."space" is not at a premium on my build lol..in fact i have more than i know what to do with
obviously you wont get full cooling thru the small a-body window but it does fit
thanx for the info doc...ill be useing all this at some point myself...course im eyeballin a BOAT aluminum oil pan..a big assed brick of a pan for a TON of oil..."space" is not at a premium on my build lol..in fact i have more than i know what to do with
v8440
Well-known member
Any decently powerful turbo big block mopar engine ought to severely strain or exceed the limits of a stock 440 block. Why not start with a 400 block? It's quite a bit stronger than any 440 block and is probably less valuable to boot, thus cheaper to purchase. Plus, it'll get you some extra space since it's narrower. The absolute best non-hemi stock block is the pretty-rare 1972 model 400 block cast in mid '71. They have MUCH thicker main webs than any other non-hemi block, but any 400 is better than any 440. 383's are better than 440's but not as good as 400's.
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
I already have the 440 block.
I'd really like to use an R3 block, but money is an issue, and $2,800 for a block is serious cash. I did mention using a 5.7/6.1 Poly-Hemi as the basis for this as well. I see they're getting serious power from them and I can get a low mile 5.7 for $2,500.
I'd really like to use an R3 block, but money is an issue, and $2,800 for a block is serious cash. I did mention using a 5.7/6.1 Poly-Hemi as the basis for this as well. I see they're getting serious power from them and I can get a low mile 5.7 for $2,500.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
There are plenty of guys exceeding the natural-aspiration limits of factory engine blocks with forced induction, some with wheel horsepower numbers higher than the accepted crankshaft figures. Turbocharging actually reduces the highest stress factor on the engine, which is the stress imparted during the intake stroke. Add to that the fact that there's no need to spin a properly-done boosted engine to seven grand, reducing damaging harmonics considerably. Guys like the fella with that mid-9-second '62 Savoy are running unmodified factory-cast small blocks that, by rights, should open like a tulip around 550HP.
Regardless, if you're shooting for a particular peak horsepower number with a turbo engine, you're missing the point entirely.
The R3 block is a small-block. Not sure why it's mentioned here.
Forget the late-model corporate V8. $2,500 way too much money for something you have to completely rebuild before you even install it. Besides, you'll have crate-Hemi money into it by the time you reliably make Hellcat-like numbers.
Regardless, if you're shooting for a particular peak horsepower number with a turbo engine, you're missing the point entirely.
The R3 block is a small-block. Not sure why it's mentioned here.
Forget the late-model corporate V8. $2,500 way too much money for something you have to completely rebuild before you even install it. Besides, you'll have crate-Hemi money into it by the time you reliably make Hellcat-like numbers.
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
I know the R3 is a small block based engine, I was just stating if I had the cash that's the way I'd go, and make sick power.
So, girdle and/or partial block fill or no? On the other 440 of course. This one is coming together, just need to snag some exhaust manifolds.
So, girdle and/or partial block fill or no? On the other 440 of course. This one is coming together, just need to snag some exhaust manifolds.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
Well, I'm doing both on my small block. That being said, I don't have an awesome option like cross-bolted main caps. You do. They're not inexpensive, nor are they easily installed (you definitely ain't doing it at home) but they're probably a better option than either of the other two.
However, once again, if you're not going to rev it to the moon I'd probably just recommend the main girdle. A half fill takes up precious coolant volume, which might make cooling an issue stuffed into an A-body. Keep in mind, if you're talking about the main girdle with which I'm familiar, it ties into the pan rail. That's going to move the pan closer to the K, so make sure you've got clearance. If you have to raise the engine a little with mount shims or the like, do that prior to figuring out the exhaust.
Another couple of things you shoud consider must-haves if you've got turbocharging on the brain: Main & head studs, and MLS gaskets. Yes, they're rather expensive. No, they're not nearly as expensive as a wrecked engine. Despite what you might have read about it, using less-expensive head gaskets as a "fuse" is a fool's errand. A blown head gasket can cause all kinds of more-expensive damage, particularly under boost. If you think $150+ for a pair of head gaskets is heartbreaking, let me tell you about the heartbreak of a rod pointing at the frame rail. :doh:
However, once again, if you're not going to rev it to the moon I'd probably just recommend the main girdle. A half fill takes up precious coolant volume, which might make cooling an issue stuffed into an A-body. Keep in mind, if you're talking about the main girdle with which I'm familiar, it ties into the pan rail. That's going to move the pan closer to the K, so make sure you've got clearance. If you have to raise the engine a little with mount shims or the like, do that prior to figuring out the exhaust.
Another couple of things you shoud consider must-haves if you've got turbocharging on the brain: Main & head studs, and MLS gaskets. Yes, they're rather expensive. No, they're not nearly as expensive as a wrecked engine. Despite what you might have read about it, using less-expensive head gaskets as a "fuse" is a fool's errand. A blown head gasket can cause all kinds of more-expensive damage, particularly under boost. If you think $150+ for a pair of head gaskets is heartbreaking, let me tell you about the heartbreak of a rod pointing at the frame rail. :doh:
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
Great advice. I plan on bulletproofing the bottom end, steel crank, aftermarket rods and forged pistons with main and head studs. I'm sure aftermarket rods are a little overkill, but all I have is a bare block so if I'm going to spend the money I might as well do some lightening of the rotating assembly as well. I want the bottom end and valvetrain done, as much as possible, but I know the 452's are going to limit my power. I realize they are decent heads, but I know there are better aftermarket options, especially with forced induction.
Hughes Cams, the larger lobe how does that benefit? Bushed lifter bores? I'm going to look into the cross bolted mains, just to satisfy my curiosity.
Billet aluminum caps with the girdle?
Hughes Cams, the larger lobe how does that benefit? Bushed lifter bores? I'm going to look into the cross bolted mains, just to satisfy my curiosity.
Billet aluminum caps with the girdle?
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Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
The billet aluminum caps never even occurred to me. I have heard and read good things about them, though.
I bought aftermarket rods for both of my small-blocks. I got the Scat Super Stock I-beams with the ARP 8240 capscrew upgrade. I'm pretty sure I'll find the end of the block before I break a rod anyhow. I used to have a good source for brand-name engine parts at significant savings, but alas... that sorta dried up with the job at the diesel shop. I'm working on getting connected with the same place for the parts store, though (along with a million other things that need to get accomplished at work).
As far as the heads go, if they magnaflux out OK I'd suggest just pocket-porting them according to the MP templates, then port-matching to whatever intake you use, about 1/2" into the port. No need to get insane by hogging them; off-boost torque will be better with a little port velocity. If you upsize to 2.14/1.81 valves, that's going to require additional strategy including new hardened seats for the exhaust valves (you'll cut through the factory hardening). Check your machine shop costs before you make a decision on heads, though. By the time you hop up a set of 452s you might be very near the price of a set of the 440Source castings. Don't know, haven't looked. My 440 is getting the factory heads milled and template-ported, and that's the end of that other than better valvesprings. I'm simply not looking to make 500HP with it. Just keep this in mind: Boost pressure is simply a measurement of the resistance of your engine to airflow. In other words, porting is just as (if not more) effective on a supercharged engine as it is on an NA one. The old wives' tale about not needing to port a turbocharged head because "boost shall overcome" is as foolish as the one regarding "needing a little exhaust backpressure to help it spool."
Hughes' claim to fame is "Real Chrysler Cams", both in the fact that they supposedly grind them to make the best use of the .904" lifter diameter in terms of ramp speed, and that their profiles are somehow gooder than anyone else's. I know the one in my friend's 340 works great. That being said, personally I'm not sold on 'em. They're not the only ones maximizing the rate-of-lift; I know Howard's Cams and Lunati do as well. Lunati's Voodoo line was designed by the original owner of UltraDyne Cams (prior to Bullet buying them), who was a freakin' genius. He's since died, and much like everyone else, Lunati doesn't list any turbo-specific grinds for Mopars. As always, I recommend you call a cam manufacturer, tell them what you're doing, what you've got, and what your goals are, and let them tell you what camshaft to use. Be aware that if you're for sure doing forced induction, an NA cam will not likely be your best choice, and vice-versa. There's no happy medium here. I know for awhile "reverse split" cams were all the rage in the turbo crowd. I don't know if that's still the case, but rest assured no one makes one for Mopar V8 applications. I'm also not sure of what the "absolute max power" drag racers are doing, since that's never been the goal for my car. I stopped researching turbo camshafts quite awhile back, having given up on a "shelf" cam for my own project. I'm having a custom cam ground, probably on an alternative firing order (if I can find someone with the right blank).
V8440 might have some insight as to what the current camshaft trend is among the "balls to the wall" crowd, though. His projects are way more strip-oriented than mine. I want to be able to take my shit to work and stuff.
I bought aftermarket rods for both of my small-blocks. I got the Scat Super Stock I-beams with the ARP 8240 capscrew upgrade. I'm pretty sure I'll find the end of the block before I break a rod anyhow. I used to have a good source for brand-name engine parts at significant savings, but alas... that sorta dried up with the job at the diesel shop. I'm working on getting connected with the same place for the parts store, though (along with a million other things that need to get accomplished at work).
As far as the heads go, if they magnaflux out OK I'd suggest just pocket-porting them according to the MP templates, then port-matching to whatever intake you use, about 1/2" into the port. No need to get insane by hogging them; off-boost torque will be better with a little port velocity. If you upsize to 2.14/1.81 valves, that's going to require additional strategy including new hardened seats for the exhaust valves (you'll cut through the factory hardening). Check your machine shop costs before you make a decision on heads, though. By the time you hop up a set of 452s you might be very near the price of a set of the 440Source castings. Don't know, haven't looked. My 440 is getting the factory heads milled and template-ported, and that's the end of that other than better valvesprings. I'm simply not looking to make 500HP with it. Just keep this in mind: Boost pressure is simply a measurement of the resistance of your engine to airflow. In other words, porting is just as (if not more) effective on a supercharged engine as it is on an NA one. The old wives' tale about not needing to port a turbocharged head because "boost shall overcome" is as foolish as the one regarding "needing a little exhaust backpressure to help it spool."
Hughes' claim to fame is "Real Chrysler Cams", both in the fact that they supposedly grind them to make the best use of the .904" lifter diameter in terms of ramp speed, and that their profiles are somehow gooder than anyone else's. I know the one in my friend's 340 works great. That being said, personally I'm not sold on 'em. They're not the only ones maximizing the rate-of-lift; I know Howard's Cams and Lunati do as well. Lunati's Voodoo line was designed by the original owner of UltraDyne Cams (prior to Bullet buying them), who was a freakin' genius. He's since died, and much like everyone else, Lunati doesn't list any turbo-specific grinds for Mopars. As always, I recommend you call a cam manufacturer, tell them what you're doing, what you've got, and what your goals are, and let them tell you what camshaft to use. Be aware that if you're for sure doing forced induction, an NA cam will not likely be your best choice, and vice-versa. There's no happy medium here. I know for awhile "reverse split" cams were all the rage in the turbo crowd. I don't know if that's still the case, but rest assured no one makes one for Mopar V8 applications. I'm also not sure of what the "absolute max power" drag racers are doing, since that's never been the goal for my car. I stopped researching turbo camshafts quite awhile back, having given up on a "shelf" cam for my own project. I'm having a custom cam ground, probably on an alternative firing order (if I can find someone with the right blank).
V8440 might have some insight as to what the current camshaft trend is among the "balls to the wall" crowd, though. His projects are way more strip-oriented than mine. I want to be able to take my shit to work and stuff.
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
I want to be able to take my shit to work and stuff.
Me too, I'm glad I have 2!
What the hell, lets goes all the way...
http://store.440source.com/Stealth-...s-ASSEMBLED-SINGLE-HEAD/productinfo/200-1080/
http://store.440source.com/1_4-Main...llet-Aluminum-Main-Caps/productinfo/200-1095/
http://store.440source.com/Ultralight-Crankshaft/productinfo/40042506800-6-LW/
within the budget anyway :doubt:
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
That's the big mod these days, turning cranks down to Chevy rod journals. Aftermarket abounds with replacement parts. I wouldn't run the stock junk though.
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
That crank looks sexy, but I must say I expected a little more than "ported W2" numbers out of the heads, especially since W2s can do it with much-smaller valves. Such is the limitation of a stock rocker arm and intake pattern, I guess. You'd probably be way ahead of the game keeping an eye on racingjunk for a used Indy 440-1 setup with intake and rockers. It'll still cost you as much or more than those, but you'd get a much-bigger return on investment. Unless you stumbled across someone getting out of a B-1 setup, of course.
I forgot how inexpensive that 440Source stuff is. That's a smokin' deal for billet main caps and a girdle. :dance:
I forgot how inexpensive that 440Source stuff is. That's a smokin' deal for billet main caps and a girdle. :dance:
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
I plan on doing the bottom end as solid as I can, build it once, and do it to the best of my budget. I'll buy the best heads I can afford at the time, I can always swap heads without affecting the short block.
I'd love to be able to buy the Stage V Hemi heads. Twin turbo Hemi goodness!
I'd love to be able to buy the Stage V Hemi heads. Twin turbo Hemi goodness!
Attachments
Dr.Jass
Pastor of Muppets
All show, no go. If the pictured engine isn't running in the sevens, they're not even trying. :dgt:
Stage V heads seem like a great idea until you try to run exhaust. It simply can't be done with motor mounts, period... which is why the factory Hemi block used a different mounting arrangement than the B/RB engines. So, you're stuck with motor plates. Fuck that noise.
I guess I'm unsure of what you're attempting here. You're looking at all these stroker-engine bits, which alone should be enough to get a well-built half-'glass Valiant into the upper nines with aftermarket heads, etc. You're also talking turbocharging, which requires none of that shit to get the car into the nines; guys do that with small-blocks with relative ease. Building a skyscraper-class stroker foundation and adding forced induction is complete overkill for your stated goal. Also, I don't know if you've started a life of crime, or what, but a properly-done turbocharged stroker RB is going to cost well into five digits by the time you turn the key.
A 446-inch engine can do 1,000HP @ 6,400RPM with a relatively-mild 17PSI with the right intercooler and E85. If you're doing it for the strip, you're way ahead of the game to look into a big single rather than twins, which will also ultimately save you time, aggravation, and money. It's gonna take more boost to do it on pump gas--considerably so--but that's because E85 both brings its own oxygen to the party and is significantly higher in octane than pump gas. More octane means more spark advance, and that means more power. E85 can be big, stupid fun. It's cheap race gas.
But there's a lot more to it than that.
Turbocharging an engine is not a "build a killer naturally-aspirated engine, then throw a hairdryer at it" exercise. Yes, you want to build the baddest-ass bottom-end that you can afford, naturally, but billet cranks and $1,000 connecting rods are not necessary unless you're planning on getting extraordinarily silly with both boost and RPM. What's required is research and thought. Lots of both.
It's fun to read about how JimBob threw a turbo at his stock-block 360 and went 9s. It makes it sound simple, and that's exactly the idea. What you don't hear about is his machine-shop bill or all the detail work into making such a combo not only work, but live. This is true of any killer build, but moreso with forced induction. Everything that can go wrong is amplified under boost, which is why the foundation needs to be as near to perfect as possible. It's also why "turbo dyno fail" YouTube videos are so spectacular.
You can throw all the gee-whiz parts you want at it and still be slow. Very slow. I can think of many examples where I smoked cars into which the owners had sunk more money in the engines than I had in my whole car. The worst was a big-block Chevy-powered '80 Trans Am with a tunnel ram and near-.600" cam that couldn't pull away from my Dad's stone-stock L69 305 Delta 88 (not the original engine), with me at the helm of the Olds and five friends riding with me. He had at least a half-ton weight advantage on me.
Stop worrying about parts and start working on your smarts. You want to go nines? You're going to need to do a lot of learnin', my friend. You're also going to need a bunch of money for machine work. The engine absolutely needs to be blueprinted. Not just balanced; you need your cam centerline verified, your decks corrected, etc. Bores should be straight and round with a tolerance of less than .0005". You absolutely need to know your exact block height or any compression numbers are garbage. You can't order custom pistons accurately without it; you may need those at that power level if only for the thicker ring lands (although if you can find suitable "shelf" nitrous pistons, they'll work). Either way, you need to know your exact CR. If your machine shop does not have a five-axis CNC block machine, get another machine shop. Expect a $2,000+ labor bill by the time the rotating assembly is balanced. But also expect it to live longer at the same power level than a shortblock with nothing more than a $300 production-shop bore job using deck plates, a Sonny Bryant billet crank, and Manley rods.
Accurate rockers (Crane, Comp, Harland Sharp) are an absolute must. None of this wild-variance overseas inexpensive shit. Custom pushrods of the exact length required are just another part of blueprinting; don't expect a "shelf" pushrod to be the right length with resurfaced or aftermarket heads bolted to a corrected block. There might be some available, but don't mortgage the house on it.
Unless you're going to drop the big bucks on fully-CNCed heads, get a burette and stand and CC your cylinder heads. You absolutely must know your chamber volumes--all 8--and have them as equal as humanly possible. There's no such thing as a "published" head volume, especially with stock heads, short of fully-machined chambers. Production variances don't allow for exact numbers. You need exact numbers. This also applies to port volumes and shape. Any variation leads to a difference in mixture, timing, or volumetric efficiency. Under boost, those variations will make for some expensive-ass doorstops.
The basic point I'm trying to make is you're much better off spending extra hours learning, researching, and working on the engine than you are working extra hours at a job to afford so-and-so's reverse-wound, anti-reversion, sodium-filled ported canuter valve. You can reach your goals pretty easily with a blow-through carb; I've learned enough to know that my own goals can't be reached with a carb, even though I want to run a couple seconds slower than you (albeit in a much-heavier car). I've also learned that for my application, twins are probably the better option, while in your scenario (at least with the Nova) a big single is almost a no-brainer.
Stop reading magazines. Magazines are cheap because they're full of pretty ads paid for by advertisers who expect their products to be pushed, even if they're pushing junk. They're full of half-truths and misrepresentations.
Start reading books. Books are expensive because someone knowledgeable with no dog in the fight is pushing knowledge rather than parts. There are no pretty ads to pay for the books, which is also why they're usually full of black-and-white pictures rather than color. Learn how to calculate fuel requirements. Learn how to read a compressor map, calculate where your combo will fall on one, and decide which turbo best suits your needs. Mostly, learn how to tune a turbo engine, because it's a very-different animal in terms of mixture and especially timing. A hellish NA engine might love 38° total timing; a boosted motor might push the rods out with barely half that.
Stop reading online about other people's combos. That's the worst, because you think about how you can change this, that, or the other for better results--even if they themselves think that might be the case. You don't know every detail of their combo; only they do. Other than occasionally using known-good calculators to save time, looking at compressor maps, and occasionally e-mailing experts who are gracious enough to respond (they rarely post on forums) I've almost completely stopped using the internet as a source of research.Along that same line of thinking, don't expect anyone else to figure out your combo for you. Modeling and simulators are great tools; get a good one like Engine Analyzer Pro and learn to use it. The results are only as accurate as your inputs, and getting back to the point about blueprinting, those results are based on blueprint numbers, meaning every specification you can't change is based on the factory's optimal design dimension.
I literally have months of research, planning, and re-thinking my own combination. I've changed my pistons once, rods and injectors twice. I've upgraded the crank. I'm not 100% sure of my throttle body, and my fingers are crossed regarding the turbos (regardless of multiple checks). And I still figure I've got about a 50% chance of the car coming off the dyno with a two-piece engine block because of some detail I've missed, an over/underestimated base calculation, or a glaring tuning error. I've read the same books multiple times, and keep going back to critical chapters even still... and the block isn't even out of the car yet!
Just because it doesn't have to cost a million dollars, don't think it's going to be easy. You're not going to figure out your combo one weekend and slap it together the next.
Stage V heads seem like a great idea until you try to run exhaust. It simply can't be done with motor mounts, period... which is why the factory Hemi block used a different mounting arrangement than the B/RB engines. So, you're stuck with motor plates. Fuck that noise.
I guess I'm unsure of what you're attempting here. You're looking at all these stroker-engine bits, which alone should be enough to get a well-built half-'glass Valiant into the upper nines with aftermarket heads, etc. You're also talking turbocharging, which requires none of that shit to get the car into the nines; guys do that with small-blocks with relative ease. Building a skyscraper-class stroker foundation and adding forced induction is complete overkill for your stated goal. Also, I don't know if you've started a life of crime, or what, but a properly-done turbocharged stroker RB is going to cost well into five digits by the time you turn the key.
A 446-inch engine can do 1,000HP @ 6,400RPM with a relatively-mild 17PSI with the right intercooler and E85. If you're doing it for the strip, you're way ahead of the game to look into a big single rather than twins, which will also ultimately save you time, aggravation, and money. It's gonna take more boost to do it on pump gas--considerably so--but that's because E85 both brings its own oxygen to the party and is significantly higher in octane than pump gas. More octane means more spark advance, and that means more power. E85 can be big, stupid fun. It's cheap race gas.
But there's a lot more to it than that.
Turbocharging an engine is not a "build a killer naturally-aspirated engine, then throw a hairdryer at it" exercise. Yes, you want to build the baddest-ass bottom-end that you can afford, naturally, but billet cranks and $1,000 connecting rods are not necessary unless you're planning on getting extraordinarily silly with both boost and RPM. What's required is research and thought. Lots of both.
It's fun to read about how JimBob threw a turbo at his stock-block 360 and went 9s. It makes it sound simple, and that's exactly the idea. What you don't hear about is his machine-shop bill or all the detail work into making such a combo not only work, but live. This is true of any killer build, but moreso with forced induction. Everything that can go wrong is amplified under boost, which is why the foundation needs to be as near to perfect as possible. It's also why "turbo dyno fail" YouTube videos are so spectacular.
You can throw all the gee-whiz parts you want at it and still be slow. Very slow. I can think of many examples where I smoked cars into which the owners had sunk more money in the engines than I had in my whole car. The worst was a big-block Chevy-powered '80 Trans Am with a tunnel ram and near-.600" cam that couldn't pull away from my Dad's stone-stock L69 305 Delta 88 (not the original engine), with me at the helm of the Olds and five friends riding with me. He had at least a half-ton weight advantage on me.
Stop worrying about parts and start working on your smarts. You want to go nines? You're going to need to do a lot of learnin', my friend. You're also going to need a bunch of money for machine work. The engine absolutely needs to be blueprinted. Not just balanced; you need your cam centerline verified, your decks corrected, etc. Bores should be straight and round with a tolerance of less than .0005". You absolutely need to know your exact block height or any compression numbers are garbage. You can't order custom pistons accurately without it; you may need those at that power level if only for the thicker ring lands (although if you can find suitable "shelf" nitrous pistons, they'll work). Either way, you need to know your exact CR. If your machine shop does not have a five-axis CNC block machine, get another machine shop. Expect a $2,000+ labor bill by the time the rotating assembly is balanced. But also expect it to live longer at the same power level than a shortblock with nothing more than a $300 production-shop bore job using deck plates, a Sonny Bryant billet crank, and Manley rods.
Accurate rockers (Crane, Comp, Harland Sharp) are an absolute must. None of this wild-variance overseas inexpensive shit. Custom pushrods of the exact length required are just another part of blueprinting; don't expect a "shelf" pushrod to be the right length with resurfaced or aftermarket heads bolted to a corrected block. There might be some available, but don't mortgage the house on it.
Unless you're going to drop the big bucks on fully-CNCed heads, get a burette and stand and CC your cylinder heads. You absolutely must know your chamber volumes--all 8--and have them as equal as humanly possible. There's no such thing as a "published" head volume, especially with stock heads, short of fully-machined chambers. Production variances don't allow for exact numbers. You need exact numbers. This also applies to port volumes and shape. Any variation leads to a difference in mixture, timing, or volumetric efficiency. Under boost, those variations will make for some expensive-ass doorstops.
The basic point I'm trying to make is you're much better off spending extra hours learning, researching, and working on the engine than you are working extra hours at a job to afford so-and-so's reverse-wound, anti-reversion, sodium-filled ported canuter valve. You can reach your goals pretty easily with a blow-through carb; I've learned enough to know that my own goals can't be reached with a carb, even though I want to run a couple seconds slower than you (albeit in a much-heavier car). I've also learned that for my application, twins are probably the better option, while in your scenario (at least with the Nova) a big single is almost a no-brainer.
Stop reading magazines. Magazines are cheap because they're full of pretty ads paid for by advertisers who expect their products to be pushed, even if they're pushing junk. They're full of half-truths and misrepresentations.
Start reading books. Books are expensive because someone knowledgeable with no dog in the fight is pushing knowledge rather than parts. There are no pretty ads to pay for the books, which is also why they're usually full of black-and-white pictures rather than color. Learn how to calculate fuel requirements. Learn how to read a compressor map, calculate where your combo will fall on one, and decide which turbo best suits your needs. Mostly, learn how to tune a turbo engine, because it's a very-different animal in terms of mixture and especially timing. A hellish NA engine might love 38° total timing; a boosted motor might push the rods out with barely half that.
Stop reading online about other people's combos. That's the worst, because you think about how you can change this, that, or the other for better results--even if they themselves think that might be the case. You don't know every detail of their combo; only they do. Other than occasionally using known-good calculators to save time, looking at compressor maps, and occasionally e-mailing experts who are gracious enough to respond (they rarely post on forums) I've almost completely stopped using the internet as a source of research.Along that same line of thinking, don't expect anyone else to figure out your combo for you. Modeling and simulators are great tools; get a good one like Engine Analyzer Pro and learn to use it. The results are only as accurate as your inputs, and getting back to the point about blueprinting, those results are based on blueprint numbers, meaning every specification you can't change is based on the factory's optimal design dimension.
I literally have months of research, planning, and re-thinking my own combination. I've changed my pistons once, rods and injectors twice. I've upgraded the crank. I'm not 100% sure of my throttle body, and my fingers are crossed regarding the turbos (regardless of multiple checks). And I still figure I've got about a 50% chance of the car coming off the dyno with a two-piece engine block because of some detail I've missed, an over/underestimated base calculation, or a glaring tuning error. I've read the same books multiple times, and keep going back to critical chapters even still... and the block isn't even out of the car yet!
Just because it doesn't have to cost a million dollars, don't think it's going to be easy. You're not going to figure out your combo one weekend and slap it together the next.
71ChargerRT
Well-known member
What do you mean it's not going to be easy!?!?!? :bwuhaha:
I know it's not going to be easy to get down in the single digits, but I believe it will be fun!
Books, suggestions? Any online sources other than the turbo forums? I look at other people's combinations just for ideas, and the honest ones for things that didn't work.
I have no issue with running a motor and mid plate set up and I'm serious about cutting out the inner fenders on the other Valiant. A strut front end and a back half are what I'm leaning toward, I just don't want a tube chassis. If I wanted a tube chassis car I would just go out and buy a retired pro mod.
I know it's not going to be easy to get down in the single digits, but I believe it will be fun!
Books, suggestions? Any online sources other than the turbo forums? I look at other people's combinations just for ideas, and the honest ones for things that didn't work.
I have no issue with running a motor and mid plate set up and I'm serious about cutting out the inner fenders on the other Valiant. A strut front end and a back half are what I'm leaning toward, I just don't want a tube chassis. If I wanted a tube chassis car I would just go out and buy a retired pro mod.