Sadness.

Dr.Jass

Dr.Jass

Pastor of Muppets
Spent most of Sunday night/Monday morning cleaning the garage (I was out there until after 4AM). Yes, Stretch and beeper*71, you can now walk through without dancing like a drunken white boy with a coil spring for a left shin and yes, you can see the floor. :dance: Special thanks to my friend Tina for driving me like a slave (or should I say acting like a wife?) to get it done. :D

Anyhow, at one point I was instructed to move the K-member out of the way so she could sweep under the engine bay of the LeBaron. Doing so, I bumped the forward part of the driver's rear quarter of the car with the K, and a good chunk of the quarter panel fell out. :doh: Closer inspection showed she's getting soft on the other side in the same area. Of course, the rust is right at the joint between the quarter and the rocker--an unfinished seam--so repair should be quite a bitch. The rust came from the inside out; I was certain these areas were solid prior to disassembling the old girl in early '04.

Strangely, the areas behind the rear wheels and the rockers themselves still seem rock solid. :huh:

So, anyhow, I took pics of the damage as well as the existing rust I knew about in the door frames. A relatively-close inspection yesterday shows these are the only areas of real concern, but I'm going to have to put assembly aside for a while until I can address these issues... so no, she likely won't run this summer. Besides, I still haven't gotten the lower control-arm bolts out, because some jackass welded the nuts to them. There's pics of that, too... the passenger-side one I've almost gotten through with my die grinder. Access to them is nearly impossible for cutting tools. :doh:

Restoman or any other body guys, any advice to assist me in this rust repair would be greatly appreciated.
 

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I hate that feeling...experienced exactly the same thing with the Dart Sport...

...Mind you, that car was much worse than this...

Ain't nothin' but a torch gonna remove those bolts.
 
get the car WELL supported to maintain ZERO flex (probably 3-4 sets of jack stands

on the rust just start cutting out the bad till you find good metal and go ffrom there


what about an air chissle on those bolts?
 
Torches and air chisels are both out. There's no clearance behind the bolts for torching--the top of the K is right behind them--and I don't necessarily want to deform or blow new holes in the K-member. The top of the K also precludes using a Sawzall, although that's not the only issue (read on).

I don't like the thought of an air chisel jackhammering away on a large grade 8 bolt (I think it's 9/16" thread) because the only thing I can see it accomplishing is ovalling the bolt holes. Unlike the older cars, there are no stud tubes, nor is there a bushing in the K to protect it from the pounding. It's just a hole in a double-wall part of the K, and the bushing is in the control arm.

What may not be obvious in the photo because of the angle at which I took it, is that at least half the nut is obscured by the oval access hole. To get a standard box-end wrench on the nut, you have to do it from the side of the oval because of the angle of the wrench's head, and even then it won't sit flat. There's not nearly enough room to use a socket. It's a bastard to service in the first place, but with those welded nuts it's nearly impossible, and no way can you get a Sawzall in there to cut the weld. The weld I haven't touched yet doesn't look too bad, but the one I've been grinding was really done well. Whoever did that one has a happy girlfriend or wife, because he certainly knows how to get maximum penetration. :D There's still no seam between bolt and nut visible, and you can see how much material has been removed.

Both Our Man Pants (co-worker) and Stretch suggested making a couple of cuts to fold material out of the way, cut the nuts off, then bend the material back and re-weld. However, I'd really have to perform some butchery to accomplish it as I'd have to do it in multiple directions to make several folds. But it's fairly thick steel, and I don't think I'd ever get it back anywhere near its original state. After looking at the pics, Pants even said he didn't think it could be done--at least not correctly--and Pants is an eternal optimist.

Jeez... the shit I put myself through just to try and do it right the first time. The LCA bushings aren't even that bad. :doh:

Anyhow, while at work today Pants generously offered the use of his sandblaster, so I can get rust out of the tough areas of the body. Messy as hell, but how else am I going to do it, right?
 
i hate to say it..but is there any chance of temporarily opening up that oval so you can get more access?.....i know...not what you want to hear..but it might save you so much time to make it a viable solution

even tho youve ground this much have you tryed turning the nut/bolt to see if it will crack a seam?...ive seen many cases in the past where grinding never reveals a seam untill said unit is rotated or attempted to rotate
 
Oh, yeah... I've tried. It still won't bust loose.

If you read the fourth paragraph of my last post, you'll see where the cutting option doesn't seem like a good one. It's double-wall in that area, so cutting material out and re-welding when I'm done likely won't return the strength it currently has. If you look in the pic with the ground bolt, you can see a couple of ovals to the upper left and right of the access hole where the double-wall construction is pretty evident.
 
my bad i was seeing the pic at the wrong angle

soooo ive got an "odd" question for you..is the nut welded into the K member then?

what about hacking the bolt off the other side and then slipping a nut buster in there?
 
While you guys are trying to figure out how to Jass's nuts off, I'll offer some advice on the rusty sheetmetal. :)

It's not nearly as bad as it looks. Pretty standard stuff for a bodyman.
Put the car on stands, get all that trim out of the way, take out the rear seat and quarter panel upholstery trim pad and the carpet (sparks will go where you don't want them).
I would do the door post first - before cutting away any part of the lower quarter. Make your patch pieces before cutting the rusted stuff away, you'll be able to use the old post as a sort of template for the new patch. It'll be easier to make several smaller patches instead of one big one. Trim the rusted sections out - you can either butt-weld the new pieces in (preferred) or slightly overlap to the old metal. If you borrow the blaster, get rid of as much rust as you can. Keep your mouth closed when blasting - sand is not good for the enamel on your chompers. When its' nice and clean, do the final fitting and start welding. Are you using a MIG or a torch? Get the welds as hot as you can without blowing chunks of steel away.
When the post is done, rough measure the bottom of the quarter and cut out a patch. If you can get to the inner part of the quarter (where the quarter is welded to the rocker), make a nice crisp fold in the patch not quite 90 degrees. Trim the patch to fit and weld 'er up. If you're good with a welder, butt-weld it. If not, overlap it by a 1/4" or so.
If you can't get to the inner part of the quarter, you'll have to make two patch panels. On will be the not-quite-90-degree piece extended about an inch above the rocker. Weld this in place first.Then the second patch panel will fill the remaining hole - weld this patch to the piece you've just welded to the rocker, staying 1/2 " or so above the rocker edge.
Whichever way you do it, you'll likely have to make the patch meet the inner door post.
Weld everything solid, grind it as smooth as possible, give the welds a going over with the sandblaster and then cover them with some fiberglass reinforced filler, like Everglass or something. Grind it smooth and commence to bondo'ing.



Make any sense?:shifty:
 
Actually, it makes perfect sense. I appreciate the advice.

Now, I want your opinion on something: I was thinking that where the fold needs to be it should be welded to the rocker... is that correct? If so, I was thinking I should maybe drill a few holes in the small part of the fold, where I can tack it to the rocker (since spot welds are out of the question). Is that right, or would there not have been welds where the two panels butt together?

As far as butt welds go, I'll be using a MIG with CO2... however, I'm somewhat new to this, so would you suggest those nifty little panel holders sold by suppliers such as Eastwood company, that will align the sheetmetal for the butt welds? I'm thinking those would be an asset for a newbie like myself. I thought about trying to flange the existing metal for an overlap, but I really don't see it happening due to the tight quarters (ha!) in which I'll be working, and I'd rather do the butt welds as I consider that "the right way".

69.5, the nuts are only welded to the bolts, so your suggestion is good, but I've not yet used a nut breaker that would snap open a weld... so I still have to grind the weld out enough for a nut breaker to work, at which point I could probably get the nut off with an impact and backing wrench.
 
can you rotate the nut and bolt assembly(yes its welded but will the whole thing turn?)..if so several passes with a nut buster on each face of the nut might make the grinding a bit easier due to more surfaces to dig into but you might also manage to break off the bottom half of the nut and make things easier
 
Yes Doc, the quarter is welded to the rocker, and drilling some holes into the patch is, what I consider, the right way to do it. Plug weld down thru the holes and you're good to go.

You can use those funky little panel clamps from Eastwood if you've got them, or, just break up a speaker magnet and use the pieces to hold the panels in alignment. Use some cardboard from a cig package to set the gap (small paper clips work well too).

I used to use CO2 all the time, but stopped. I'm not sure why, 'cause it works like a charm, and is slightly better for dirty steel.
 
Thanks for the advice, restoman. I thought I was on the right track, but it's nice to have the professional advice, and the magnet/cig-pack ideas are great since as a smoking speaker builder, I have plenty of both lying around. :D

beeper*71: you're welcome to fuck off directly, but barring that you can go piss straight up a rope. :D
 
As a side note, butt welds impress the Hell out of people, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with overlapping a panel slightly, AND, its a little easier. Especially in an area where you're fixing - no one will ever see the backside of the panel and any rust proofing will be able to creep into the overlapped area if its' small enough. You should rust proof it, new welded steel is like Paris Hilton on Friday night - all the inhibiters (in this case rust) are gone.:giggedy:

Use a good urethane seam sealer to fill the gap between the lower quarter and rocker when you're done, preceeded by some etch primer on the bare steel.
 
I was planning on coating damned-near everything with Chassis Saver paint, topcoating anything that might get exposure to sunlight, and seam-sealing the hell out of anything that could allow water seepage. Sound like a plan?
 
Sounds like a good plan, just make sure to leave some kind of drain hole open on the top of the inner rocker, behind the new patch.

I like oil, or Krown, for rust proofing. Get it done after its painted and the old girl should last a looooong time.:bravo:
 
What with all the butt welding and nut busting going on around here I need to fetch a towel.


I'll get right around to pissin up that rope right about never.:p

Yes, I am a bastard. :D
 
More like a bass turd... pond scum that doesn't have enough class to float. :D

Thanks for the help, restoman. I just can't let the old girl go, even though she's at best a wallflower among the musclecar guys around this place. :dance:
 
Not at all Jass, my uncle had one and sold it before he let me know... FOR $200 to some asshole that gave him a sob story, and that guy flipped 2 days later for $800, I still don't talk to him (uncle)
 
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