project ATC(all terrain chair)

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the tires n wheels

OE wheels n tires that were on my wifes 400ex when we got it, i promptly swapped her rears out to the old tires i had on my 200sx fourtrax, which were...to say the least GNARLY buggers, best tire ive ever ridden on PERIOD, smooth on the fast stuff but bite like a demon when they need to and will sling mud to the heavens...even on a lil 200....so the 400 kicks HARD with em, the fronts i replaced a few years back as an xmas present..something that is a good balance to the rears

which left us with these buggers, lets face it..the OE tires are nothing to write home about, the wheels, well..that 300ex i picked up as parts donated its wheels to her 400 that xmas so i could wrap em up without disturbing her quad..so these fronts n rears are 100% OE 2001 400ex

pic's taken before cleanup, i sprayed em down with a mix of dawn n water, let em sit for an hour then hauled em 1 by 1 into the bathtub and scrubbed for about an hour....ill "dress" them later

 

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minor mock up

ive been trying hard to chase down knurled studs, specificly for the chair side, as all but 1 set of my hubs are "short", mind you its not a huge deal right now as id planned to use the hubs with the longer studs, but i dont like knowing i dont have spares ready, especialy when i cant seem to find a source

anyway the "short" studs still allow for a loose mockup to verify everything is still within spec....so what youve got is the 1/2inch adaptor plate on the motor/trans, then youve got the 2 1.5inch spacers coupled into 3 inches, then the tire/wheel combo, all leaving 3/4inch of space from rubbing...right where i planned it to be

 

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cut, weld, repeat

cut and narrowed the swingers, then bored the holes to re-accept the bushing as well as cut down the internal spacers, this leads into re-cutting and welding up the mount plates so i can go full narrow on the chair, 2 inches out of each side, means internal frame width can shrink down to 10 inches IE just enough for the batterys and "just" wide enough to keep the casters from binding up should they both clock in at the same time...which...is rare...VERY rare as ive seen

 

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finished up the battery "trays" as well as gusseted up the "upper half" as i didnt feel the tubes were solid enough, all ends are also now capped off

the "major" mockup shots will wait for the morning

 

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"major" mockup

ok fairly BIG pic dump...youve been warned but im splitting it into 2 posts anyway

so outside of actualy bolting the tires in place, as well as the seat pan, this is mostly just a test of sizes, clearances etc, both at "min" and "max", the ONLY reason im doing this instead of cleaning welds and such is i need to "locate" the battery boxes, so i need to be sure the casters wont clobber the front one, as well as verify motor/swingarm travel, as well as "swingarm track adjustment" which also effect BOTH battery boxes...your typical chair has the battery box in the rear, but as ive noted when hitting a bump due to location this LOVES to get the front end airborn even if only slightly .......so thats NOT ok, thus "dual" boxes sporting 4 batterys instead of 2, the theory is RANGE and low CG will make it more stable...of course ill probably have to wait till after xmas to get her a second set of batterys, they aint cheep being HUGE 10x7 AGMs at 50lbs a pop, thankfully i have a pair thats a few years old that will do for now

 

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major mockup part2

the swingarms have 3 sets of mounting holes, for 3 inches of adjustment, right hand side set to 100% minimum wheelbase, left side set to maximum, but also the right swingarms bolted into the no.1 hole for MINIMUM length and the left in the 6th hole for MAXIMUM length, note the measurements

also make note of the dual AGM pack in tray under the rails, thats going to get pulled up into the rails, im just not certain of how high yet, i may use the single cross bar as a "tie down" restraint for them, at the very least the battery posts will be just below top of rail, not sure, thats what this mockups for

it should also be noted this is MINIMUM width settings for hole drilling and anchoring of the upper frame to both the lower sides which will expand about 6inches or so, 3-3.5 of slide per side will leave about 3inches of tube still in the slides, im also looking at modifying a scissor jack into the swingarm mounts as i have some "dead space" that i could use it to "push/pull" the rail halves as well as helping ancore them

 

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mockup 3...now with 400% more tires

after fighting to get the height right to even place the tires/wheels i had an "idea" of what id be looking at but never expected to see this beast come to the surface, i guess i thought it would be more...tame?...yes both sides are still set as min/max

battery box fit up front is going to be TIGHT, with motor swing clearance and casters holding those 22inch tires, ive got no room for errors here

out back im also running into some battery box fit issues, but its more of an illlusion than a problem, as theres ZERO reason to have the wheelbase maxed out without going wide as well, in doing so the box fits, but its still screwing with me a bit

 

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HOW?

this was my puzzle for many....many years 20+ actualy, how do you get from the wheelchair tiny bolt pattern to something useable..its been a long running idea, this isnt fresh ideas or anything new in my head, just "slight" adjustments and the realization it can be done

first up, note the lathe work here....not mine..but was required for "lug nut" space....which was just another piece of the issues that results in how to get from point A to point B, milled by someone on the board and local, who also setup the cad files to get the adapter plates cut

 

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test fit

so heres how it all goes together,
first gotta press in studs into the new plate....i paid HELL finding studs, and these were a lil on the short side so i had to give myself a lil recess for the studs to sit in and angle cut for holes for the wheelchairs lil lug nuts to "seat"
bolt the 1/2inch aluminum adapter plate to the chair hub
bolt the first 1.5inch "spacer" plate with the lathe cut recess over the adapter plate
add another 1.5inch spacer for clearance
lastly add wheel, and check the clearance to the frame

 

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NEXT up, lock down

with the wheels all solved out..mostly, and everything locking into place it was time to address the frame "width slide adjustment" so 6 holes were drilled, then the frame widened up and 6 more drilled, the results is 6inches of very easiliy pushed/pulled additional width on demand for stability
and boy does this thing get gnarly lookin

 

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POWER

with all the main measurements "locked" i could finally address the battery "box" which changed placement and size a few times, the issue is the chair is 24v so its 2 12v batterys 10x7ish, with some of the clearance required for the front wheels, the motors, the frame, etc i was left scratching my head a few times, and wasnt happy with most of my options, the end result is "tight" but works with the frame both full narrow and full wide

it starts with a 10x14 "tray", but said tray needs to be "hung" and removeable, so it started with a down tube to angle , the angle is both for bolting as much as its for support...gotta think about serviceability...so having a ledge to set it on while bolting 100lbs of battery in will be very nice...but...i botched the rotation of the tube just enough that the torch had to come back out and i had to use a BIG cresent wrench and a 4ft bar along with the heat to twist it slightly and square it back up...yeah i F-ed it up, but its not visable, and was only noticeable once i had the tray in place at the most extreem end of the tray i was about 1/2inch out of line

next up was to figure out the forward mount...with the batterys protected in welding gloves and a steel plate i tacked on front straps and opened up 2 pieces of box to make C's to weld to the front slide tube...remember the batterys have to stay with the seat NOT the rails

all said n done it worked out well, and im happy with it

 

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its the little things

spent most of lastnight working on shock angles for the swingarms, and the stock shocks will NOT work, 3inches of travel and a spring load of about 100lbs or so each, i need more travel and atleast double the spring rate....im hoping i can find someone with some air shocks or something i can make work, times runnnin out....

switched my attention today to the casters, and spent a good deal of time fussing with spacers n shims to get the front wheels centered in the casters..when your making this up as you go along you forget how much the little things will take the longest, a few dozen trial n error to get it right, its not like im working with a centered wheel or a centered hun so its a whole bunch of offsets and not something you can easily measure out and have....so...washers and a few big spacers that were leftover from the swing arm narrowing...the results are i have numbers to get the spacers milled up

 

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ive been thinking hard on body work, and can honestly say, the coolest that "could" be done would be to use maier ATC 250? front n rear fenders along with some hand fab to "fill it in" , but there aint no way...easily 5-600$ in plastic....ill just make some covers and panels for now, and not worry about "fenders"....ive been wathing c-list hoping to find some "broken and cheep" trx/atc body work i could work with but he closest ive found is stuff too trashed to bother for close to 100$ per panel

i am also on the hunt for some ATC decals not so sure ill be able to get them in time..shrug will see, but it should be pretty and fully functional if nothing else


plodding away with little to show for it, ive slotted in and test fitted 3 sets of shocks with nothing but failure, will be chasing down another set tommaro, tho i feel like im getting closer, the issues im running into is spring loads vs damping forces, the stock units had too little travel with very little spring load, the second set 1980 xl125s, serriously too long but it allowed me to really start playing with leverage angles and such, the valving sucks because there old and worn out, the spring load was just not there eaither no suprise, ive got a pair of unknown honda quad units slotted in right now that are crazy short travel but good spring load but at the right angle to use the spring load the valving is meh...but so far its on the right path so to speak, the trx200 im grabbing tommaro just might do the trick, i have a 200sx fourtrax so i looked at its shocks and...it just might be perfect compromising length travel and load...who knows on the valving

all that said, tho ive seen some weird required angles and been able to "pre plan" out a couple mounting designs...which is harder than you think cause its gotta mount of the adjustable rails not the center main seat section

body work is officialy off the table unless something falls out of the woodwork, ive got plenty of ideas but not much that can be done in the limited time left.......sandblasting priming and painting will be my focus in short order

the remaing list of "still to do" is SHORT

body/paint(cleanup of all steal prime and paint viper red which is vibrant and very close to 80s honda "red red")
electrical..this is fairly trivial but will be addin lighting..so lights too and controler mounts n such
finish up the front axles and spacers
bob the tail section of the frame thats not needed
secondary battery box for second set of batterys in "wide track" mode...this will bolt into the main battery down bar and slot inbetween the motors and swingarms
shock mounts

thats it...thats the remaining list

 

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pic dump

stainless pile!...alot more of that to come...every bit of hardware that can be..will be....good thing ive got a discount

one of many "test" and play with of shocks, this is the most promising thus far...forgive the crudity, but ive also been standing on the chair and bouncing to further test..moms a lil over 100lbs, but a second set of batterys is also another 100lbs so my 210 weight is ideal

got the power seat motor mount figured out..by accedent....seems the holes in the chunks i cut off the old casters were drilled to match the seat pan..what were the odds....a lil trimming and upper mount done, thing is i couldnt mount it as it would have been mounted with the motor down due to the change of the suspension, but also the seat now sits 3 inches "off" from how it did as a chair

tail lights....im not sold on these..but they have been kicking around since i built "the gamer bus" 20ish years ago...im more inclined to run an oddball set i run on my trailers...slightly bigger and deeper but with the same basic shape...tho im having trouble finding them "sae1ptsd99dot"

 

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time crunch dec 3rd

so what do you do...when the axles youve ordered have changed dates till mid january.....you improvise, a few plans were tried and failed, solid 15mm rod, showed up wrong size, showed up so hard i couldnt cut threads in it..both sent back....got a place to make some but something came up and they wont be here in time...so......

you make useable workable temporary units....WITHOUT a lathe....
normaly for something like this id chuck it in the drill press and grind, file n sand...ive done it a few times with perminant good results, but 15mm is too big for any chuck ive got

so 5/8 bolts are only .53mm off, so taking down half a mil is nothing but..too big to work with
start with some collars, weld down an air drill and just spin n grind, the air drill gave me issues so i one handed the grinder and a cordless drill, finished up with one of my die grinders and various discs, the reults are 14.85-14.98, good enough for testing at the very least and good enough for xmas

 

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shock angles SUCK

multiple days of playing with multiple sets of shock 5 sets now....its narrowed down to 86 trx 200sx fourtrax and 86 trx 250r both fronts.....i had forgotten about buying a full set of the 250r's 15 or so years ago for 20$ off ebay..the rear went on my 200sx, the fronts wouldnt work and got stashed

both sets of shocks are VERY VERY short travel so angle is everything, also the spring rates are plenty high, too high almost, so im actualy setting up multiple points and the ability to swap out for either set

alot of lift, mock drop, bounce, repeat, i found workable angles for both, but...i cant fully setup without "full weight" so ive been using my weight as an "overloaded" weight, but its workable

trailing arm points were roughly pinned down, altho with my latest tests i will be adding 2-3 more points , i used threaded couplers for "simplicity" cut in half..solid mounting points!

 

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last of the mockups.....i hope

first up a few shots of up n down...years ago i welded a bolt onto a 3/4ton chev scissor jack so i could use an air gun on it under cars for getting slight adjustments 1 handed, like the tail of a trans not quite up where it needs to be, ya know, those i cant reach the jack but i could do this....
anyway ive been using it as its got a TON of lift, and its light n quick

initialy i had the shocks mounted much higher in the framework...till i remembered they have to come out with the rails.....DOH... so adjustments had to be made, thus the blocking and plating...its all their to keep them from moving while i test n bounce n everything....eventualy i tossed a couple of RV batterys on the chair seat to simulate 100lbs

so its hard to see but there isnt much room to get hands in or out with the shocks sprung and blocks holding them in place....so how do you even make a template..normaly id break out some cardboard and figure it out....no space.....so start with some angle iron scraps to "cup" the base tube ill be welding to, then add to the top of it, and use a washer to mimic the shock eye, lastly fold some sheetmetal across the shock to show what i need for clearance...crude oh hell yes..but...dead on accurate

tommaro and over the weekend ill use the template to carve up a pair of mounts.....i "think" aside from minor electrical and body work mounts the fab works done

 

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shock mounts

first a shot of my "white board"....ideas checklists rough meaurements weights etc.....its been a referance point for alot of things

i puzzled over a few designs for shock mounts, nothing quite sat right with me, randomly grabbing thru scraps i happened onto an idea that showed promise...and ran with it
drafted from the scrap skeleton onto thin cardboard, then laid out over steel, cut nip drill and weld...worked out nice but the tollerance to the seat sub frame is too tight so some tweaking needs to happen.....grumble

final mockup for verificaion

 

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more options

with the upper mount points locked down, i figured more adjustment points down on the swingarms would be ideal..the previous setup worked so i just ran with it and added 3 more per side for 5 slots per..nettinng roughly 8 inches worth of adjustment points

final testing proved to be good....so thats another off the very short list

 

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finalize

in the original idea as well as the original chair there would be a battery box in the back..however..in "narrow mode" its impossible....
but it wide track i knew there was room for a few styles...

that said it was time to put it out to wide track one last time...sitting on its own suspension with 100lbs of front battery weight...and basicly everything final mocked....the results speak for themselves, but made note of the ability to use a previously made box tray with minimal effort so i figured what the hell, and ran with it

this is truely a final mockup, any body work with just get its own mounts self tapped into whats there, same goes for lights...at this point i need to still "bob" the extra tail bit of frame,finish the tail battery box, add lights and wireing for them, clean, prime, paint and re-assemble...so your basicly looking at the final product