Bellhousing bolt patterns...

thrashingcows

thrashingcows

Drowning deep in my sea of loathing...so I'm
I'm trying to figure out what bolt pattern the cummins motors run on their 727/518 trannies. Some say the V10 and cummins share the same pattern, but does not the V10 run a small block bellhousing pattern since it's loosely based on the 360 maggy motor?
 
No, both the V10 and the diesel use an SAE-spec bellhousing pattern that is also shared with the Ford pickup diesels, at least as far back as the old 6.9L, and many medium/heavy-duty truck engines. I'm not aware of any other Chrysler application of this bolt pattern.

"Loosely-based" is the exact-right term to use, since nearly nothing is shared between the truck V10 and the Magnum V8s. In fact, I think it's limited to bore centers, connecting rods, and a little bit of the valve gear (not including the rockers; I think the pushrods are different as well). Virtually nothing else interchanges with perhaps the exception of some fasteners.
 
The V10 is a creature all its own, really... and the truck version doesn't share much with the aluminum Viper V10, either.
 
but ....i thought the v10 bellhouse was a different pattern on the nv4500s than the diesel unit...or atleast everything id read up to this point ......
 
It may well be, 69.5, but from what I've read the block bolt pattern is the same. There are a number of reasons they could be non-interchangeable: starter mounting, a different depth on the crank for the input shaft's pilot, variances in clutch hydraulics, or even the fact that the diesel would require something different to accomodate a different clutch (I'm guessing the diesel clutch is much stouter than the V10s). It may be different, but I don't know why it is.
 
This may not be germane at all, but the diesel version of the nv4500 transmission and the v10 version are the same version. I can say with absolute certainty that the nv4500 will withstand far, far more torque than the v10 will dish out. In fact, I'd wager that there's no engine factory installed in any non-mass-transit passenger vehicle on the planet that would seriously threaten one of those transmissions. So, if you're cooking something up to use one of these in, be confident that you're unlikely to exceed the torque capacity.
 
Imentioned the SAE bolt pattern on the DTR site and someone came back and said that it is not an SAE pattern. Since a SAE pattern is equally spaced and distanced bolts measured from crank center.

But it does appear that the diesel/V10 (truck) motors use a different bolt pattern. One fellow mentioned this was due to the 13" clutch used on the diesel manual tranny, and then the much bigger torque converted needed for the auto version.
 
Well, I have a friend with a Cummins 12V in an old Ford (I think it's a '95--not sure), and it bolted right up to the stock ZF 5-speed trans with no modification whatsoever, and this is the second truck on which he's made that swap. That would mean an SAE pattern on the back of the block for Navistar 7.3L engines as well as Cummins 5.9L kersoseners. There's no way Dodge and Ford agreed on a bell pattern... they worked with what was available on the back of their respective blocks. I also know that for quite some time, the Cummins was an option in the Ford Super Duty starting at, I think, the F550 level--a customer from the Esky store had an F650 rollback he ordered new with the Cummins.

My guess is that the V10's different bell is based on the starter... and that's just a guess.
 
Cummins are common in ford 650s and up. Loads of school busses and wreckers out there with them. I would see them all the time when I was wrenchen at the spring shop.
 
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F550 Fords since 1999 have the 'powerstroke of the year' for a diesel. Ya gotta hit the 650 to get the Cummins.
 
Just ran across this OLD POST while searching for a chart on SAE bolt patterns and figured you wouldn't mind a "clue in". :D

It's like this:

V-10 and Diesel trans are the same case pattern, even very similar internally, which means if you change some minor parts, like governor weights and torque converter, it can do service behind each engine alternatively.

V-6 and V-8 all use the same bells, auto or manual, but are their own, not related to the V-10/Diesel bell.

NONE of the Chrysler bolt patterns have any relationship to the SAE bolt patterns whatsoever.
In truth, if I were to say "it's close to something", the V-10/Diesel pattern is reminiscent of a Big Block.

Here's a chart of the SAE sizes and bolt patterns:
http://www.garbee.net/~cabell/sae.htm

The only reason I am even looking at SAE bolt patterns is that I bought a '95 F-800 with the POS AT545, so I was looking at a cheap remedy to the slipping POS AT545 in it and was comparing it to an MT643, which is a slightly heavier version, with lock-up.

Mark.
 
Strange... not arguing with you, Mark (good to see you back) but like I said, I know a guy that's bolted two Ford 5-speed bell/transmission assemblies to the Cummins 5.9L without so much as breaking out a rat-tail file.

Maybe it's because Ford also ran the Cummins? That's my only guess. Trucks really aren't my area; I just know he described both Cummins swaps as "drop-ins". Both Fords were early-'90s.
 
Mark, funny you should mention the AT545. I've just finished working on a '93 f700 rollback with a 5.9 p pump motor, and it has the AT542, which as far as I know is the same as the 545 but with a shallower pan. The transmission is indeed a slipnslide-the torque converter is WAY too loose. The owner complained of poor acceleration, so I hooked him up. I slid the plate forward in the pump, turned the pre-boost screw in some, and loosened the starwheel up. That helped, but the thing weighs 12,000 lbs unloaded and the engine wouldn't rev high enough to beat the converter into submission. So, I went back and put a 3000 rpm governor spring kit in it. Now it beats the holy shit out of the converter and gets moving, if he shifts it manually. It picked up almost 15 mph on the top end, and isn't a pig from a standstill anymore.

I figured that no matter how much a converter slips, if you rev it high enough, it will eventually stop acting retarded and start transferring power. That's exactly what happened this time. I'd like to see what it would do with my dually motor stuck off in it, but I think it would set the transmission on fire. When that thing gets spooled up past about 40 pounds, it IS GOING TO MOVE. If the transmission can't take it then it'll just break. I'm surprised I haven't folded a section of the driveshaft yet.
 
The cummins in our trucks has an adapter plate that converts from whatever the block has to an SAE pattern. I think it's either SAE 1 or 3. Or, maybe I have it backwards, and the bare block w/o the adapter plate is one of the SAE patterns. Either way, there is an SAE pattern involved in the dodge cummins trucks. I strongly suspect that international did the same with their blocks, or ford used an adapter to an SAE pattern. If ford and dodge (or cummins and navistar) both did that, it would explain why the transmission just bolted right up.
 
Dr.Jass said:
Strange... not arguing with you, Mark (good to see you back) but like I said, I know a guy that's bolted two Ford 5-speed bell/transmission assemblies to the Cummins 5.9L without so much as breaking out a rat-tail file.

Maybe it's because Ford also ran the Cummins? That's my only guess. Trucks really aren't my area; I just know he described both Cummins swaps as "drop-ins". Both Fords were early-'90s.
Click to expand...
Jasser,
Nice to see the racing sloth hasn't left the scene!
There's adapter plates to put any B series Cummins (4 or 6) into a Ford, since there's a company that recognizes how truly HOPELESS the No-PowerJokers truly are and manufactures bolt in adapter plates for all varieties of ford Transmission.

http://www.destroked.com/prod_adapters.php

V-8 440, I've considered turning the pump up a touch, anyway, but even a lock-up non-overdrive transmission has got to be better than this!
As far as there being an SAE pattern on a Dodge truck, the answer is no.
The block side is Cummins 'B' Series unique, the tranny side is Dodge specific.

Mark.
 
I wouldn't doubt that maybe some other manufacturer out there uses a pattern that's close or similar.
To add insult to injury, Cummins slightly changed the pattern on the block, starting in the '03 Dodge model year, for the Commonrails.

You mentioned a "Tow Truck" earlier.
The F-800 is an old Salvation Army box truck (they are the last and original owners), plans are to remove the box to use for storage, then cut the bed off the hauler in my sig pic to make the Ford into a hauler.

I wouldn't kill off the ol' 78, except for the fact that I have gone through 3 sets of front springs in it and it's woefully under-braked with an Extended Cab 4wd Dually on it. :(

It's a surprise that the DOT hasn't ever "gotten" me with it already.:shifty:

Mark.
 
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