Are there any 5 or 6 speed options for the big blocks?

Blue70

Member
I know Keisler has 5 and 6 speed kits for the Big Blocks but was wondering if there is anyone else, or anything ma Mopar ever made that might work..

I would like to swap to something with a hydraulic clutch also..

I'm not a huge fan of the 4-speed, 3.91 combo in my Road Runner right now..
Little old ladies flip me off for going too slow on the highway :(
 
Well, if I'm thinking correctly, Lakewood makes a bellhousing to put an NV4500/NV5500 behind a big-block, but you'll likely have to break out the tin snips and blue-tip screwdriver to make anything else fit. Shifter location, mount, and transmission girth as opposed to tunnel size are all going to be major problems.

I believe Lakewood also makes a hydraulic clutch apparatus as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Keisler does too. Why do you want hydraulic?
 
Well, if I'm thinking correctly, Lakewood makes a bellhousing to put an NV4500/NV5500 behind a big-block, but you'll likely have to break out the tin snips and blue-tip screwdriver to make anything else fit. Shifter location, mount, and transmission girth as opposed to tunnel size are all going to be major problems.

I believe Lakewood also makes a hydraulic clutch apparatus as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Keisler does too. Why do you want hydraulic?

I like the hydraulic for the ease..
I rebuilt my z-bar, but still don't like the feel of it
I want it to feel like a new car ;)
 
I don't know what the nv5500 is, but I can tell you that you probably won't like an nv4500 for a car. Not only is it pretty big, but you won't be speed shifting it. One thing for sure-you wouldn't break it.
 
I like the hydraulic for the ease..
I rebuilt my z-bar, but still don't like the feel of it
I want it to feel like a new car ;)
Putting a hydraulic clutch on it won't make it any easier... you're still pushing against a 3,200lb (or greater) static-load pressure plate. To my knowledge, the hydraulic conversions do not have any changed geometry for additional leverage and therefore mechanical advantage.

If you've ever driven a '60s Dodge truck, you know what I'm talking about. A friend had a '67 Dodge pickup, 2WD, with a Slant Six and 3-speed. It had a hydraulic clutch, and it was harder to push than my '73 Challenger.

If you want ease of operation, lose the over-center spring on your clutch pedal and install a diaphragm clutch (GM style)--a complete Centerforce Dual-Friction if you're making a ton of power, but otherwise a pressure plate from a GM 10.5" application will work with your current disc. Ask me how I know.

We sell Sachs clutches, and they offer completely new clutch kits with the diaphragm-style cover, new disc, throwout bearing, pilot bushing, and alignment tool as an option for Mopars.

For anyone considering any diaphragm-style cover on a RWD Mopar passcar: you absolutely MUST remove the huge over-center spring under the dash. If you don't the clutch pedal will stay on the floor, if not the first time you push it, then when you least expect it. Nasty surprise on a power shift. Centerforce's instructions tell you this, or at least they did in the past. Sachs' don't.

So, you're reading this and thinking to yourself, "Gee willikers, self! This sounds like a swell upgrade!" Not so fast, Beav... it has its drawbacks, too:
  • Significantly-lower clamping load on the diaphragm clutch versus the original Borg & Beck 3-lever design. Generally 600-1000lbs less static load (clamping force at rest).
  • Slower engagement, though this really isn't a huge issue unless you're racing.
  • Diaphragm clutches tend to hang on the floor on high RPM shifts, even without the over-center spring.
  • Diaphragm clutches weigh more... not a huge amount, but it's 100% rotating mass, and a pretty-large diameter one at that.
The Centerforce (actually, Scheifer--I'll get to that) design's centrifugal weights help overcome much of this; the pedal won't hang on the floor and the engagement is accelerated due to the weights' pulling the fingers back out. It does help with the clamping load as well, but not enough to make up 600+ pounds of force. I believe (and this is just a belief of mine; I have no evidence) that this is the reason that Centerforce developed the Dual-Friction design: less clamping load can be offset by more friction. You're still going to have the higher weight, and have you priced a Dual-Friction of late? Yow.

Personally, I've never thought muscle-era Mopar clutches were bad at all, though for pedal feel I vastly prefer the Long-style clutches used in early A-cars and some Slant Sixes (and virtually every muscle-era HP Ford). I also like the Long's centrifugal roller assist, which means lighter static loads than a Borg & Beck but impressive clamping force at RPM. I hated the spongy diaphragm clutch in my '78 Trans Am so much that I switched it out to a Mopar B&B unit.

My ultimate clutch? 10.5" Long-style cover (Ram used to make this in a Mopar bolt pattern, but apparently it's long gone, pardon the pun), Centerforce Dual-Friction disc, stock throwout, and a roller pilot bearing. Expensive unit to piece together, even back when the weird Ram cover was available. You can use a Long 11" pressure plate on a Ram Mopar flywheel, but it has to be the '69-down "true" 11" clutch with the 143-tooth flywheel, not the '70-up 10.95" that bolts to the 130-tooth flywheel... so if you have a factory aluminum bell, you're out on that option.

Now, for a bit of history...

For those not old enough to remember (and I'm one of them), the "revolutionary" Centerforce weighted-diaphragm design was not new when Centerforce formed in the late '70s. Bill Hays started and eventually sold the Hays Clutch dynasty, then started Centerforce Clutch. I don't know exactly how things went down at the patent office, but Carl Scheifer actually invented the Centerforce's centrifugal-weight design in the Sixties, and marketed them under the name "Rev-Loc". Scheifer clutches were popular back in the musclecar era. I don't know if he never patented the design, if he just let the patent expire, or if he sold it, but Bill Hays somehow got ahold of the patent and has kept it solely his since around 1977. So, for your edification, no, Centerforce didn't revolutionize anything.

Scheifer also used to make pressure plates (B&B, Long, and Rev-Loc diaphragm) that were high in aluminum content, with a steel pressure ring. They weighed significantly less than comparable clutches to improve rotating mass and allow for quicker revs. They were at the forefront of aluminum flywheel development as well.
 
This is probably a moot point, but there is indeed a hydraulic setup for the nv4500 with more mechanical advantage than stock. It costs about $250 from southbend clutch, and just bolts in place of the stock hydraulics. I have one on my setup. I switched to it at the same time I switched from the 3600 lb spring setup to the 3850 lb setup on my pressure plate. I could not feel any additional pedal effort when I did the swaps.

It's really a shame that an nv4500 would be such a tough swap, as clutches are easily available that would take more than you're likely to ever put to it. My setup is rated to 750 hp, which is about 1500 ft/lbs, since 12v cummins diesels tend to make about twice the torque as they do hp. Problem is, my clutch and flywheel weigh right at 100 lbs.
 
Very good Dr Jass. One thing you forgot is that diaphram type clutches seem to prefer a little more throwout bearing travel to fully disengage and engage (particularly true of centerforce) so you may wind up playing with the linkage a bit. You can feel the throwout weights on the centerforce through the clutch pedal by resting your foot on the clutch pedal and reving the engine, the pedal will rise a little, usually means you need a little more adjustment on the clutch. The first diaphram clutch I ever used in a mopar was a ZOOM. Had a nasty habit of going over center if the clutch was adjusted right.
 
This is probably a moot point, but there is indeed a hydraulic setup for the nv4500 with more mechanical advantage than stock. It costs about $250 from southbend clutch, and just bolts in place of the stock hydraulics. I have one on my setup. I switched to it at the same time I switched from the 3600 lb spring setup to the 3850 lb setup on my pressure plate. I could not feel any additional pedal effort when I did the swaps.
The question is this... does it work with the Lakewood bellhousing and the old Mopar pedal? We're not talking about a stock diesel Ram application, but a swap into an old Chrysler. As far as I know, only the Lakewood setup will work with the Lakewod bell.

Cudajon, you're right about the pedal travel... but, we didn't have a problem with adjustment on EFI Ed's big-block (I wasn't there for the six-speed swap, though). We adjusted for about an inch of free play at the top of the pedal, and he never had a a problem.
 
The question is this... does it work with the Lakewood bellhousing and the old Mopar pedal?

I have no idea, but space permitting I bet it could be made to work. The way the stock truck setup works is pretty simple, especially on the bellhousing end. There are two studs sticking straight back out of the bellhousing. The slave cylinder simply slides onto those, and you tighten it down with two nuts.

For the pedal end, you might have to fabricate something to hold the master cylinder, but again, I think it wouldn't be terribly hard to do.
 
Ummm, I had to come back to this, I tried to walk away but I just couldn't.
Hydraulics (clutch components in this case) do make it easier (less input) to arrive at a given force, that's the principle behind their use.
Try stopping your 4000+ pound vehicle at 60 mph using nothing but mechanical leverage.
 
Hydraulics (clutch components in this case) do make it easier (less input) to arrive at a given force, that's the principle behind their use.
Try stopping your 4000+ pound vehicle at 60 mph using nothing but mechanical leverage.


Indeed.



Yabba Dabba Doo!!!!

fred_barney_dino_car.jpg
 
Ummm, I had to come back to this, I tried to walk away but I just couldn't.
Hydraulics (clutch components in this case) do make it easier (less input) to arrive at a given force, that's the principle behind their use.
Try stopping your 4000+ pound vehicle at 60 mph using nothing but mechanical leverage.
No, they don't. Hydraulics have nothing to do with it. Oh, we can get into a discussion about bore sizes, fluid displacement, mechanical leverage, and all that good stuff if you'd really like to do so, but the simple fact of the matter is you're wrong. Unless, of course, you can explain why the hydraulic clutch in Marty's '67 pickup, with its 10" clutch, was harder to depress than my '73 Challenger's 10.5" mechanical unit.

Oh, and the Bugatti Royale (the largest passcar ever built) stopped pretty damned well considering its mechanical brakes, at a time when hydraulic brakes had already come online. It's all about leverage; you can only provide so much advantage with piston bores.

Yes, you can use fluid pressure to your advantage to make a clutch easier to disengage, but as a blanket statement, you're wrong.

Sorry.

Easiest clutch I've ever driven (and I've driven a lot of 'em) was the mechanically actuated clutch on my '86 Charger. By contrast, my '87 Conquest's hydraulically-actauted clutch was far heavier to disengage... and the Charger was an upgrade Borg & Beck pressure plate v. the Conquest's diaphragm.
 
I saw this in MCG a few months back

There's a company in Dubuque, Iowa that puts together modern A500 4-speed overdrive auto trans to directly bolt on to old, big block Mopars.

They've been doing by word of mouth advertising for about 6 years now.

Basically, you supply them with 2 cores: a modern A500 from a late model truck or van
and a old big block 727

They cut the two cases and weld them back together.
The innards are reworked and replaced to deal with the power from the 440.. They say it'll easily handle up to 450 hp - so this isn't a drag racing application and they don't claim it be one.

They've done all the heavy lifting to figure this stuff out and even developed a trans member to mount the trans.

The conversion adds 2.5" compared to the 727, so you'll need to trim the drive shaft.
No trans tunnel mods required. Wiring adaptations and plug-ins are all figured out..

TranzTech prefers to do the work including the installation in their shop - these pieces are made to order, too.


TranzTech Transmission Specialists
320 E. 30th St.
Dubuque, Iowa 52001
563-582-5876
 
Jass beat me to it, but I was about to say that you can gain mechanical advantage with either a lever setup or a hydraulic setup. To say that one provides a mechanical advantage and the other does not as a blanket statement is incorrect. In any given situation, one might be designed to and the other might be designed not to, but that's a function of design, not whether it's hydraulic or a lever.
 
In my wagon I went with a diaphragm clutch and lost the over center spring and it worked great, no harder to depress then any other 90's truck with a stick.

Did the same thing in the Power wagon but went with a Centerforce unit, same thing, easy as pie.

I wouldn't go through the hassle of a hydraulic clutch EVER, it's just not worth it.

Jass is 100% bang on about hydraulics vs leverage.
 
I have a centerforce in it already, and it is much better than the RAM that I took out, and readjusted the clutch last week..
It will now go into first a lot better, before it would not go back into first at all until you were about stopped..
I may replace the Z Bar with one of my own design with roller bearings,
and slightly different leverage to give myself a hair more throw down at the lever.
and while I am at it, replace the shift linkage ends with heim joints (spherical rod ends) if there's room for that..
 
Again Damn good info guys...I had been under the miss information that a Hyd. clutch set-up would be easier to use than a mechanical one.

Sweetness... :2thumbs:
 
Again Damn good info guys...I had been under the miss information that a Hyd. clutch set-up would be easier to use than a mechanical one.

Sweetness... :2thumbs:

They can be if set up properly,
but the best thing to me about hydraulic is no adjustments
 

SiteLock

SiteLock
Back
Top