My 71 Duster work in progress

[b-body-bob]

Looking at it today it looks like I can cut 7" off the cart simply enough and it will basically be from the front of the k-frame to just under the idler/pitman arms where they attach to the drag link. The headers go above that so that should be clearance.

The bottom of the bellhousing is 14" off the floor. I think that's at least as high as it would be with the car on the wheels, so that should give me clearance beneath it.

There are a couple of places on the bellhousing that I am going to need to grind off. It's a fairly large "block" that sticks out on each side. You can see it at the forward bottom edge of this one.

 

[Dr.Jass]

The bottom of the bellhousing is 14" off the floor. I think that's at least as high as it would be with the car on the wheels, so that should give me clearance beneath it.

That's much higher than it would be installed in a running car. I think it's more like 8" off the floor without the inspection cover installed. My Lakewood is maybe 6", not including the mounting flange. Luckily for it, my oil pan is much lower with about 3½" of clearance.

 

[b-body-bob]

Re-rigged the cart, probably need to do it again to get it a little bit higher, but with the starter on, I have this



No bueno.

The headers don't go all the way to the head. That would be a no problem situation with a full sized starter.

Is there a different clocking / setup on these things or am I going to end up buying one of those hyper expensive Robb Mc starters (or knocking a huge dent in that tube)?

 

[b-body-bob]

Fiddled around with it some more and it fit better but it's still flat against the starter. This time I had the front two bolts in and snugged with the gasket, and the rear-most bolt in and snugged but the other one on the back tube didn't want to start. Probably needs to come up just that little bit more.




I'm having a hard time imagining that not being a problem even with a divot knocked in it there.

Also, with the smaller cart I'm starting to experience that tipping back I was concerned about from the start. Look at the mount and the ears on the k-frame.

The larger cart held it up by the drag link but was in the way of headers.

Now the headers fit but the mounts are in a bind from the k-frame wanting to roll backward off the cart.

I tried adding some more 2x4s to get it to move my way but the weight is all behind the centerline of it

Right now the transmission jack is holding it closer to level.

I still had a hassle getting it close to in place because of the steering. Hard to guide and lower all at the same time. I'm gonna just go ahead and make some spacers to bring it up some.

 

[Dr.Jass]

To get it to sit correctly, you're going to have to work out something for the back of the transmission, period. I'd suggest something where the transmission mount bolts to the tailshaft. Maybe just a single caster on a riser would do it (something using both transmission bolts). You need it to sit level with the rear support and the K-member supports all doing equal duty. The drag link is too far forward and not something I'd want to rest 700lb on in a manner for which it wasn't designed.

This here is how you break a motor mount before ever starting the engine:

They're only designed to work in direct tension or compression. Twisting 'em like that will rip the rubber.

Battery cable first, then headers. Now it's arguably no easier to install than with the whole shebang in the car.

 

[b-body-bob]

To get it to sit correctly, you're going to have to work out something for the back of the transmission, period. I'd suggest something where the transmission mount bolts to the tailshaft. Maybe just a single caster on a riser would do it (something using both transmission bolts). You need it to sit level with the rear support and the K-member supports all doing equal duty. The drag link is too far forward and not something I'd want to rest 700lb on in a manner for which it wasn't designed.

This here is how you break a motor mount before ever starting the engine:

They're only designed to work in direct tension or compression. Twisting 'em like that will rip the rubber.

Battery cable first, then headers. Now it's arguably no easier to install than with the whole shebang in the car.

I think picking it up further back on the transmission won't bring the rear of the k-frame up, just the engine and trans, similar to the way it is right now. If it was on solid mounts the k-frame would rotate with the engine, but they're not solid so it's always going to twist like that. I know it's going to rip them but I spent hours trying to get this thing set up to support the rear of the k-frame with no joy. If I let the trans jack down, the motor will rotate all the way until the tailshaft hits the floor or the engine falls off the cart, maybe both.

I wasn't so much using the draglink to hold the engine up as I was to keep the k-frame from rotating. The trans jack has been there since I installed the gear box.

No need to put the cable on it until I've got the starter/header figured out.

The frustrating part is none of this would matter if I could get the headers on because it would be in the car by now

I was hoping there would just be a different starter that wouldn't hit the headers, but I'm thinking they all have the same design and I'm going to end up beating the heck out of those brand new pipes trying to get enough of a dent in the right place to clear that connection.

My options seem to be knock a dent, buy a clockable starter RobbMcPerformance - Mopar Starter, or buy a full-size starter and see if that will work.

I'll just say I have had bad luck with hammers heat and headers and leave it there.

 

[b-body-bob]

I finally did what a smart guy would've done a week ago and looked at the Doug's site where it says a Mopar P5249644AC will fit. I'm still skeptical that is different from what I have other than not having a rubber boot on that terminal.

 

[b-body-bob]

FWIW FABO mentioned

2005 Dodge pickup, 5.7 Hemi, straight drive fits nicely with headers

That looks like this, so the solenoid is on top and out of the way of the headers.


I can get it local and can return it if it doesn't work.

But, look at the difference in the snout



That won't work, right?

 

[b-body-bob]

Going on .... the 5.7 starter might work but it has to be one to fit a manual transmission because that has a different snout on it. You have to drill out threads in the lower top hole. Apparently it works on 727, not on 904, haven't found evidence of one used on a SB 4-speed.

Not one parts store around here has one for a manual trans. Rock auto has them, fairly inexpensive, but such a hassle if a return is needed.

 

[Dr.Jass]

I finally did what a smart guy would've done a week ago and looked at the Doug's site where it says a Mopar P5249644AC will fit. I'm still skeptical that is different from what I have other than not having a rubber boot on that terminal.

View attachment 27409

That's the same starter you have. MP's been selling it for years but it's simply the Ram/Dakota piece, although I can't remember the year split. That style starter changed from the initial pre-Magnum Dakota design sometime in the late 1990s. I don't know if the size changed but the power increased.

Have you tried calling Doug's to find out why you're having issues since they say it fits? Seems the obvious solution rather than floundering around looking for alternatives.

I think picking it up further back on the transmission won't bring the rear of the k-frame up, just the engine and trans, similar to the way it is right now. If it was on solid mounts the k-frame would rotate with the engine, but they're not solid so it's always going to twist like that. I know it's going to rip them but I spent hours trying to get this thing set up to support the rear of the k-frame with no joy. If I let the trans jack down, the motor will rotate all the way until the tailshaft hits the floor or the engine falls off the cart, maybe both.

Why isn't the cart supporting the rear of the K-member? I guess I wasn't clear in my previous response, but when I said "You need it to sit level with the rear support and the K-member supports all doing equal duty" I meant all five points: four on the K and one for the transmission. It seems to me that something that's supported by four points in the car should always be supported as such, which is why I mentioned damaging the motor mounts. The whole point of doing it this way is to have everything correctly aligned and assembled on the floor so the body can be dropped onto it (or in your case, it can be lifted into the car). Yes, the back of the K is going to drop anyhow once you lift it, but for both moving it around and setting up everything, I can't imagine the process going well without the K-member supported approximately the same way it will be in the car.

Not one parts store around here has one for a manual trans. Rock auto has them, fairly inexpensive, but such a hassle if a return is needed.

They can likely get you one tomorrow. You can size it up prior to modifying it; if it won't work take it back. TBH, I'd be more likely to modify the bell for a different arrangement than drill out the starter. If the starter fails, you've no warranty. You can always Heli-Coil the bell later if'n you want to go back to the original arrangement.

 

[b-body-bob]

Delayed on the starter last night to make 1/4"x2 stacks of shims to raise me up over the steering gear as needed. Stupid stuff like that seems to take forever, made worse because the best material I had is 16 gauge (1/16" thick) so I had to make 8 of them.

That's the same starter you have.

I think so too, the only difference I see is the problem terminal is insulated on mine but not on that one. Maybe they think it's OK to be that close to the header without the insulation. With it, it's going to melt. I still think it's too close.

Have you tried calling Doug's to find out why you're having issues since they say it fits? Seems the obvious solution rather than floundering around looking for alternatives.

I expect the answer would be Edelbrock heads, etc etc. Dent the tube.

Which is what I should do but that is one of those irreversible things like:

TBH, I'd be more likely to modify the bell for a different arrangement than drill out the starter. If the starter fails, you've no warranty.

I get your point but I'm not sure the bell is made to where a bolt will work there. Need to look; can't see it in any photos I have handy.

Why isn't the cart supporting the rear of the K-member?

I need to rework it so it extends more to the outside and rests under the LCA, yet stops before it gets into the header area - so somewhere under the pitman arm area maybe?

I'm limited by the width because of the V-shape of the picker legs - if it's too wide I cant get the picker far enough over it to reach the rad support and pick the car up. Coming in through the side opens up a can of worms related to how high I have to pick it up to get it under and the very process of shoving it in there sideways and wanting to turn not roll. So I'm choosing to being the engine straight in from the front.

Right now the engine is just sitting there, nuts on the through studs are loose on the mounts, and when I left it last night hovering over the k-frame but by now the picker has bled off so undoubtedly it's sitting down on it.

Those mounts only cost like $5 each, so I never expected much out of them. Thought about buying a solid set and only using the driver's side, but those are $60 and can be replaced pretty much anytime so I held off.

Yes, the back of the K is going to drop anyhow once you lift it, but for both moving it around and setting up everything, I can't imagine the process going well without the K-member supported approximately the same way it will be in the car.

I have always had the concern that once I move it, it's going to spit the cart out from under it like a watermelon seed. I was able to roll the larger cart around no problem. Another problem with the larger cart was the hardwood parts had too many screws driven into them over time and they were splitting. So then I wondered what would happen if one of those split and a wheel came loose and the answer was "nothing good".

ETA: Advance will have a hemi starter for me (reman, lifetime warranty) here tomorrow morning. $153+$50 core charge and I thought I hauled all my starters off to recycle not all that long ago, but found this photo saved so hooray I've got one.


Yeah lifetime warranty that I'm probably going to void once I know it spins and will fit.

 

[b-body-bob]

TBH, I'd be more likely to modify the bell for a different arrangement than drill out the starter. If the starter fails, you've no warranty. You can always Heli-Coil the bell later if'n you want to go back to the original arrangement.

I looked, and find that upper starter bolt hole would pretty much intersect one of the pivot bracket bolt holes so there's no way to come all the way through. The shapes back there aren't conducive to a bolt head either. AFAICT the only way to use the 5.7 starter is to drill the threads out of the starter.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Don't know if this has any bearing on your case, but with engine in TTi said the headers would go in, I had to remove the starter, so I put the wires on the starter before I wormed it back in after headers, still no fun but at least I didn't have to fight the wires.
If you can get it all done before it would be worth it.

 

[b-body-bob]

There's still part of me that thinks I should pick up another mini-starter while I'm at the parts store tomorrow, and see which fits best. I could save some money, and warranty, if through some fluke a different mini-starter fits. But the realistic side of me knows good and well they're all the same and that header's too close even with the rubber insulation gone.

 

[Dr.Jass]

You won't know 100% how the starter fits until both it and the headers are bolted and final-torqued 100%.

Still, assuming why there's an issue rather than calling the manufacturer and asking about your concerns/issues completely escapes me. It's entirely possible they'll say, "Oh, yeah, with that setup you need a 1/8-inch shim under the passenger's side insulator" or some other simple cure. Your engine is nothing special regarding bespoke or custom parts, nor is the starter. They should fit, and if they don't Doug's should be able to tell you why.

 

[b-body-bob]

Ok Ok I put my faith in the human factor and called. I talked to Brent and got the expected answer - "Are you using the MP number we spec? Starters are built to different sizes/specs and a small difference is all it takes." Denting the header is covered by warranty as long as I don't go nuts on it to the point of damaging it.

I mentioned the 5.7 starter and he sounded interested in that and disappointed that I'd have to void the warranty to use it.

I figured all the mopar-configured Densos were basically all the same but TMYK I guess.

I need another starter anyway because the problem one came off the 440 originally.

I'm going to go ahead and buy one of their mini-starters for a 99 Dakota and pick both that and the 5.7 up at the same time and see which one fits best. If the mini-starter is just different enough to work it will save me about $30 and I'll have the lifetime warranty on it. (on-line orders get 20% off, but I had to call to order the 5.7).

 

[b-body-bob]

5.7 starter hits the block. It might work on a different small block but it sure won't work on mine. So that gets returned.

The block curves out there at the solenoid so with the starter hanging on the lower stud it bangs smack into the block at the top.

The mini starter I bought gave me a little more clearance that the first one did, but not a lot.


I took the header back off for now so I could easily get the motor back on the k-frame, then tried to change the cart to support that better. Mission accomplished - still not perfect but a lot better.


One thing I've got to figure out - the starter has a plug-in on it for the solenoid wire, not a stud and nut. So I've gotta find or make a pigtail for that. I'm hoping I can find something in the HELP aisle.

 

[b-body-bob]

Dorman makes every pigtail known to man except the one I need for the starter solenoid. Taking it back to with me to the parts store so if they don't have that I will just return the stupid mini-starter too.

 

[RUSTY Cuda]

Stuck this here too if you didn't head out already?

Googled it, only one that had anything but the regular connector was sorensen 13A46-6TA tat had 2 little ones at the starter on spade for a lug & one that looked like a straight connector coming out the other direction .
It did give me a mopar part #, 56020393 when I googled that they all had the regular round connector???

 

[b-body-bob]

1992 D150, 20% off at Advance if you order online.



It even came with a new cable-moving adapter just like the one that came on the first starter.

With my luck it will fit just like the first one and I'll end up denting the headers to make it work, but at least they're raw steel so there's no coating to be careful about.

It was even cheaper than the 1999 with the plug. That thing is apparently worth $30. Note to self, if the starter goes out on the Dakota, buy an early model starter and replace that stupid plug with a ring connector.