Uh - oh....

When FCA announced they were dropping the 200 and the Dart, the first thing i thought of was that they were making themselves more attractive to a buyer...
I should hire out as an analyst or a consultant. :)
 
He's been so far up Mary Barra's and GM's ass to merge for the past year or more, he can't see daylight.. I'm not surprised, I think he even tried to strike a deal with Carlos Ghosn over at Nissan/Renault.. Right around the time the Honeymoon period was over, and his blushing Chrysler bride turned out to be a floundering corporation with a truck, and Jeep as the only profitable parts, he started banging on doors.. Ferrari pulling their stake (or being sold, I can't remember) out of Fiat probably didn't help much either.
 
Well I have almost as hard a time accepting the whole Fiat thing, (me and Italian products don't mix well unfortunately... but that's another story) as I did Daimler.

But there are a couple potential partners on that list that would push me away from Ustabechrysler permanently.
 
I wouldn't worry, GM won't have any part of it.. They see it as the turd that can't be polished. If your concern is Renault, then you should sell any old Jeep Cherokee you own, and never buy another because they designed it for AMC and made the gearbox. Those gearboxes were piles of steaming crap, I'll admit.. Just like the PRV v6 designed as a joint venture that found its way into Deloreans, Volvo 260s, boats, and whatever Peugeot and Renault used it in. IIRC, the cams had no bearings, and the tension on the timing chain would eventually pull them through the soft aluminum towards the center of the block. I may be full of crap though, I've only worked on one in a Delorean, and the guy who owned it was telling me about it.
 
Dead on on the PRV engine... a steaming pile of engineering failure, but at least it was slow!
 
Well, the communist Chinese are at the top of my no-go list....for what should be obvious reasons. Followed closely by any Asian automaker. Not because I dislike Asian people, but because their business practices brought about a lot of the pain North American industry as a whole is feeling.

Renault is really no better or worse that Fiat in my opinion.

Fact is, I was one of those who was excited by the possibilities the Daimler "merger" presented. Who knew they were a steaming pile of lying, cheating crooks? :huh: [smilie=l:
 
As for Asian automakers, we did that to ourselves.. The Japanese car industry was non existent until we shut down their airplane manufacturing after WWII.. All of those engineers got displaced, and started getting jobs wherever they could, bike companies became car companies. They gave our malaise seventies auto industry the bare assed spanking it so richly deserved. 460 cubes barely clearing 200 horse? Shit. Read up on Soichiro Honda, the guy was absolutely driven to succeed. We were all sitting on our asses, and slapping upholstery on vacuum controlled headlight doors.. Looking at you Mercury

As for the rest of them, the one solid thing the chicken tax has done is force many Asian automakers (and European) to build factories in our third world.. The Deep South (not you, Florida or Texas) Do the profits ultimately go overseas? Sure, but those plants have created thousands of jobs and bolstered the economies in otherwise unliveable conditions.. Those hapless folks would still be chasing yardbirds and dryhumping relatives all day if it weren't for Toyota right now.
 
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There was that little issue of "dumping..."

And the fact that most Asian countries to this day block our products from their markets.
 
To that end, they also block each other's cars from their markets.. The Chinese were setting Japanese car dealerships on fire two years ago. The Japanese pretty much only drive their own stuff.. Japanese culture and (maybe) economics are so far removed from ours, it makes it difficult to understand their mindset as a whole. What they choose to adopt, assimilate, and reject in and out of their culture can be baffling.. For instance, all JDM cars have the Arabic alphabet (English, European) on them as badging because that's the Japanese way of honoring the automobile's origins.. From the western world.

Also, can you blame them for trying to keep out Sebrings, Cavaliers, 200s, Cobalts, Escorts, and eighties anything we made? They do love our blue jeans tho.
 
It goes far beyond cars. I'm not opposed to trade if it goes both ways. It just doesn't, particularily with Japan and Korea who block as many products from north America as they can. I believe it's only fair that we do the same.

Like right now, after the Saudi oil ministers speech, I think we should close our borders to their oil...... Actually given there human rights record, I find it difficult to accept that we do business with them at all. Same goes for Red China.
 
Unfortunately, these are the mountains and valleys of a free market.. Everybody's welcome, even Cuba
 
Well, Maybe it shouldn't be quite that free. I'm pretty much a libertarian/free enterprise kind a guy. But I have to wonder about the wisdom of giving free access to those who would take advantage of that from outside without giving us free access.

And then there is the case of China, who happily steals other peoples designs, Re-jigs them with substandard components and sells them for a dollar. It's getting to the point where there is no reason to invest in R&D because you will never recoup the investment.
 
Fact is, I was one of those who was excited by the possibilities the Daimler "merger" presented. Who knew they were a steaming pile of lying, cheating crooks?
I did. I called it back then, long before my forum days. Those of you who were around in the halcyon days of ScatPack, circa mid-2000, may recall that I was vocally critical of NaziKrysler even then, when they were still in the honeymoon phase and all the news coming out of Highland Park was rainbows and unicorns.

It was pretty obvious to me from the get-go: M-B, obviously successful but nowhere near the powerhouse in the most profitable market on Earth, somehow worms their way into a "merger" with, at that time and for a couple of years prior, the most profitable car company on the planet. Chrysler had more cash in the bank than Ford and GM combined, more than Honda, or Toyota, or anyone else in 1995 and continually up through the merger. Not assets, not cars, not dealers--cold, hard, withdrawable cash. For nearly two years prior, Chrysler literally had enough pennies in the jar to nearly buy GM outright. Let that sink in. In the mid-'90s, Chrysler couldn't miss. Everything they built was generally considered quite attractive, and each new product was an out-of-the-park home run: Ram, ZJ, TJ, Neon, the cloud cars, the LH and LX, you name it. It was a heady time to be a Mopar guy. The Krauts knew the "merger" would spur activity in Chrysler stock sales and used that opportunity to buy all they could and take controlling interest. Once they held the hammer, they used it to break a $28 billion piggy bank and keep it all for themselves. In a move similar, but not identical to Honda's way of doing things, they then used their outdated tooling to make parts for "new" Chrysler products. Daimler filled the lineup with decade-plus-old Benz stuff. Good quality? Apparently. State of the art? Not even close. Challenger, Charger, 300? '90s Mercedes underpinnings. Hell, the Crossfire was blatantly a first-gen SLK with a new outer skin and a V6 to tug its chubby ass around, rather than the supercharged four. The key? On paper, they sold some of the dedicated tooling and machinery to the Chrysler divisions, so that when Daimler had finished raping the former Chrysler Corporation they'd actually made money on it. Even worse, the non-dedicated tooling still belonged to Daimler--so Cerberus, the government, the UAW, God knows whom else, and now Fiat are stuck buying components from Daimler. If put to celluloid, I'm not sure if it would be a porno or a snuff film; it's clearly one of the greatest fuckings in history, but the climax is the real-life murder of one of the players.

Fiat? Fiat's done nothing but rebrand some buildings and polish the husk. The 200 is the car nobody asked for except Stuttgart's overstocked warehouses, and the Dart was a low-risk disaster waiting to happen since the small-car market is essentially dead (Daimler knew this, hence the replacement of the formerly successful Neon with the ill-conceived Caliber miniature tallwagon). Fiat got the company inexpensively from the government and the UAW, and the linked article at the beginning of the thread tells the story between the lines: Marchionne is a master deal maker. His intent was to sling some filler at the rusted hulk of Chrysler, slap an Earl Scheib paint job on it, and toss that fucker on the lot for a profit... using Fiat's global successes as an indicator that Chrysler is clearly worth owning.

You know what? While I'd enjoy seeing him fail and have the Chrysler acquisition drag Fiat down kicking and screaming--I doubt it will--I honestly don't give a fuck. Chrysler's been gone nearly 19 years. It's never coming back. Nothing introduced since the '90s has sparked my interest. Though the C-Class Chargenger SL-RT8 AMG EvilPussy, or whatever they call that eyesore, is an amazing performance car, it's no more a Mopar than a '90 LeMans was a Pontiac. The current "Hemi"--merely a corporate V8 neither more proud nor special to own than a Chevrolet 305 in 1986--doesn't even have hemispherical combustion chambers, for fuck's sake.

I refer to all the new cars as the "Axis" Mopars. Germany and Italy are once again waging war against the Americans. And "Mopar guys" carry the flag proudly... :(
 
Well put.

Mostly - there are a couple things I would comment on if that's allowed: :toot:

I did. I called it back then, long before my forum days. Those of you who were around in the halcyon days of ScatPack, circa mid-2000, may recall that I was vocally critical of NaziKrysler even then, when they were still in the honeymoon phase and all the news coming out of Highland Park was rainbows and unicorns.

By the time we all gathered in the forums, I would say the honeymoon was long over. At least to those who held shares in the pre merger Chrysler Corporation. The jig was up a few short months after the ink was dry on the deal. Robert Eaton and Jurgen Schrempp deserve a private acid/sulfur bath together in hell. Of course there are still historical revisionists at places like Moparts who insist that Daimler was the best thing that ever happened to Chrysler....Because y'know, North Americans don't know how to build cars without outdated hand me downs from the Fatherland.

To this day, I don't understand how the U.S. SEC didn't get involved with this deal. I have read numerous published business school analysis of the situation that assert there was plenty of cause for them to do so. That's right: university business schools across North America have done studies of the Daimler/Chrysler thing on how not to do a merger, and as an example of unethical business practices.

the small-car market is essentially dead

I think this is completely untrue. Was then, is now. There is a robust market for small and mid sized cars worldwide, including the USA. Most non-Detroit automakers are doing quite well with economy cars. Fact is they are not as profitable as their larger stablemates largely because the same customers who require economical fuel mileage also require an economical price tag when they buy their car. This is a big problem for the Detroit three, who's $100 + per hour union labour input costs far exceed those of competitors who's labour costs are less than half that. (And before anyone gets their panties in a knot, those figures include ALL costs per worker, not just their hourly wage.)

The small economy car market will continue growing. They just ain't gonna be made in traditional union shop manufacturing facilities. The Dart failed because it was too much money for what it was. Fiat will continue to offer the ugly little Mexican made 500 in it's small car.

You know what? While I'd enjoy seeing him fail and have the Chrysler acquisition drag Fiat down kicking and screaming--I doubt it will--I honestly don't give a fuck.

Up until a few months ago, I would have agreed.... 'specially given my personal distaste for all things Italian. But we went ahead and bought another one. There was nothing else that met all of our needs nearly as well as the little Patriot we bought this past Summer...

I refer to all the new cars as the "Axis" Mopars. Germany and Italy are once again waging war against the Americans. And "Mopar guys" carry the flag proudly... :(

It ain't just cars and it ain't just the "Axis" and it's been going on for decades.... :(

http://www.moparnuts.com/forums/showthread.php?182979-World-War-Three&p=458170#post458170
 
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By the time we all gathered in the forums, I would say the honeymoon was long over. At least to those who held shares in the pre merger Chrysler Corporation. The jig was up a few short months after the ink was dry on the deal. Robert Eaton and Jurgen Schrempp deserve a private acid/sulfur bath together in hell. Of course there are still historical revisionists at places like Moparts who insist that Daimler was the best thing that ever happened to Chrysler....Because y'know, North Americans don't know how to build cars without outdated hand me downs from the Fatherland.
Ah, but I clearly said I called it long before my forum days, and I remember being derided for being hypercritical on the rare occasion that it was a subject of discussion. The only place where the honeymoon was over was on Wall Street. Enthusiast magazines from Car and Driver all the way down to Mopar Collector's Guide were all still crowing about the wonderful things the merger had done for Chrysler. I have a magazine collection dating back to the mid-1980s; well into the common-rail era it was all about how much gooder Chrysler was product-wise, post merger. By and large, non-investor/non-financial types still didn't recognize the disaster until after Cerberus had acquired Chrysler from Dr. Z. I was privy to the conversation: Uncle Stockbroker told my Dad, "Now's the time to sell, because this stinks to high heaven." He proceeded to explain what seems to be 20/20 hindsight to many (though he certainly wasn't the only one--how else could Daimler have acquired so much interest in Chrysler?) Dad listened to him and sold.

To this day, I don't understand how the U.S. SEC didn't get involved with this deal. I have read numerous published business school analysis of the situation that assert there was plenty of cause for them to do so. That's right: university business schools across North America have done studies of the Daimler/Chrysler thing on how not to do a merger, and as an example of unethical business practices.
Uncle Bill couldn't figure it out either. It was one of the concerns he raised to Dad, though his main concern was devaluation of Dad's investment, which was made when Chrysler was about to be delisted pre-K-car. It just didn't compute that M-B would even merge with Chrysler; anything less than Chrysler buying Daimler as a division (as they'd done with Lamborghini and Maserati in the past, both bad decisions) simply didn't make sense. If BMW made overtures about a merger with GM, don't you think eyebrows would go up? It would literally be the same type of situation: Something's rotten in Denmark, kids.

I think this is completely untrue. Was then, is now. There is a robust market for small and mid sized cars worldwide, including the USA. Most non-Detroit automakers are doing quite well with economy cars. Fact is they are not as profitable as their larger stablemates largely because the same customers who require economical fuel mileage also require an economical price tag when they buy their car. This is a big problem for the Detroit three, who's $100 + per hour union labour input costs far exceed those of competitors who's labour costs are less than half that. (And before anyone gets their panties in a knot, those figures include ALL costs per worker, not just their hourly wage.)

The small economy car market will continue growing. They just ain't gonna be made in traditional union shop manufacturing facilities. The Dart failed because it was too much money for what it was. Fiat will continue to offer the ugly little Mexican made 500 in it's small car.
I should've been more clear: the small car market in North America is dead. The Dart is a North American market small car. Even the "successful" small cars, such as the Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit are stagnant sales-wise. North Americans don't want them, just like they eschewed hatchback bodies that remain popular in the rest of the world. Small cars remain popular in the rest of the world where restrictive government mandates or taxes keep them as such. Ireland, for instance, at one point had an outlandish luxury tax on cars with a displacement greater than (I believe) 1.8L engines. I couldn't find it online, but it was something like $800 per tenth of a liter over the limit. So a 5-liter Mustang would have an additional tax of around $25K at one point. They've since changed the system so that they can fuck you yearly based on the vehicle's emissions. The lowest-emitting cars are taxed around $130/year, whereas your Mustang GT would hammer your wallet for about $2,600 every dozen months. Cheaper than it was, but it's still around $16K just in taxes by the time you've made Payment #72.

No matter, though. I don't care about the rest of the world because as it turns out, I don't live there. :D

I made no mention of midsize, except to say that the Chrysler 200 was the car nobody wanted. Chrysler had been returned its assignment as the premium brand of the Chrysler leg of DC and then FCA. Once again, positive public reaction to a well-thought-out concept car (the 2009 200C) resulted in a medocre actual offering that shared nothing with the show car except the name. Chrysler customers were not screaming for a cut-rate, low-rent midsize car. That was Dodge Avenger territory. The 200, sold as a premium luxury midsize, is based on the same fucking platform as the dime-store Caliber, which was already three full years into its life cycle when the 200 debuted--the '07 Caliber itself debuting on a Daimler-modified version of the already-2-year-old Mitsubishi GS platform. Once again, we're treated to a company or companies that should have learned from the marketplace bitch-slapping GM took with both the Pontiac Aztek (popular show car, hideous production car) and the Cadillac Cimarron (slapping fancy shit on a downmarket shitbox), yet clearly didn't. You simply don't aim at the 3-series if your gun is loaded with glorified, sawed-off Outlanders half a decade old. I don't even know who to blame. It's hard to pin down exactly when the 200 was in product planning, but chances are it was prior to the concept car's days on the show circuit. Probably Cerberus, who had all the auto-industry knowledge of your typical cabbage.

Up until a few months ago, I would have agreed.... 'specially given my personal distaste for all things Italian. But we went ahead and bought another one. There was nothing else that met all of our needs nearly as well as the little Patriot we bought this past Summer...
You misunderstood my statement. I did not say I wanted to see Chrysler fail. I said I wanted to see Sergio Marchionne's attempt at his greatest "deal" (swindle) yet fail--and put a big ol' keyshot in Fiat's lovely sheen.

It ain't just cars and it ain't just the "Axis" and it's been going on for decades.... :(
Saw where the link went and didn't follow it. Y'all can have that thread. :dgt:
 
I guarantee you it wasn't me deriding you for your point of view re: the whole Benz thing......... The truth quickly became painfully clear due to my relationship to someone who had to make the same choices your Dad did. Shares were purchased at about the same time I would guess...

As I step outside my office door, and I see two things on the street: Giant trucks/SUVs, and small cars. Nothing in between. Closest thing to a mid/large size car right now is the partner's hatchback Golf....

meh.... The WW3 thread ain't so bad. It's the other one that got perverted. Besides that link leads to one specific post.
 
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