This is getting ridiculous

restoman

restoman

The paint fumes have cleared so I'm
I bought 7 litres of Heath Green basecoat for the Mercury I'm working on. Everything is green on this car and I want to make sure I don't run out part way thru the job.
My cost on 7 litres of Sikkens base - $819 plus tax!!!!!!!
I just about shit.
Retail is $1092.
That's paint only, no thinner, clear or hardener. The thinner runs $100 per 4 litre can, and 2 cans are needed.

The suppliers say when the solvent-based paints are fully gone, water-borne is gonna go up in price.
I can hardly wait.
 
OUCH! I know paint jobs can get rather spendy quick but wow! You're making your money back on it from the customer I assume.
 
Fishy said:
OUCH! I know paint jobs can get rather spendy quick but wow! You're making your money back on it from the customer I assume.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I charge around 20%, but still, it's way too much money. That's a tough pill to swallow, and pretty hard to sell to a customer sometimes.
When I was in business and had my own paint system, my cost per mixed litre of base ran around $75 for pearls and high metallics. This Green is just a solid colour, nothing fancy at all.
No wonder people start shopping for lower line paints.
 
Yeah, but you get what you pay for... I've shot PPG's Omni, and I might as well have drunk food-colored molten ice cream and pissed on the panels.

Sikkens is top-shelf stuff. That's actually a pretty-good price for that much paint. I can also tell you that unless you're painting a stretched Excursion inside and out, you're going to have a ton of paint left over... I know, I sell it. Akzo Nobel's least-expensive paint is U-Tech, and one of my customers in Esky was doing a '55 Chevy pickup. Interior, underside, bed, engine bay... everything. He ordered 5 quarts of their Polybase and had almost half a gallon left over. The stuff covers.

Had I known you were using Akzo I'd have suggested Lesonal. That's their equivalent to the best stuff PPG or DuPont have to offer, as basecoats go.
 
No Doc. I'm always concerned about running out of paint whenever I'm not the guy mixing it. Nothing worse than ordering a litre because you're about to run out on those last few panels, only to find the guy mixing it wasn't as careful as he should have been and now you have two shades of whatever colour you're spraying.
Been there, done that and cleaned the gun when I was done.
This car has EVERYTHING painted green (it's a four door wagon) - exterior, the complete inner bare shell, all the interior trim, the underside of the floor, inside all the panel edges, the seat frames, lift-up floor panels... everything. I'd take a rough guess and say there are around 75-80 pieces, ranging from bolts to reveal mouldings to fenders. Painting it all piece by piece uses more paint than painting a complete car. I'm counting on having a little less than a litre left over when done so I can give it to the customer to touch up all the little nicks when he reassembles this car. There is a tan insert around the upper door frames but a litre is enough to do that.
Sikkens is excellent stuff, that's why I bought it. I've used just about every paint there is over the years and really don't like spraying less than the best. Paint production for awhile and you'll know what I mean. :)
Lesonal is ok, I've sprayed it several times and it does cover just about as well as the Sikkens. I wouldn't compare it to top-line PPG, NEXA or Dupont though, not even close.
I've had good luck with Omni too, NEXA has their own version if it called Valu-Pro. Doesn't cover like a top-line paint, but it does the job.
If it's me buying the paint I always go for top-line, bacause if there is a problem, it becomes my problem and gets fixed on my dime. If the customer buys it, he can buy the econo lines, no problem, but I make sure they understand any paint related issues are coming out of their pockets. Truthfully, paint issues are few and far between, but it gets real expensive real fast if you're fixing a screw-up that is directly related to a lower quality paint. Like I said, been there.
$117 per litre is waaaaayyyy too much money, expecially at shop cost. And it's gonna get worse.
 
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I haven't shot Sikkens or Lesonal yet (I will shoot Lesonal in the future), but my friend Mark who recently left my employ didn't feel the Sikkens was worth the extra expense over the Lesonal--and he worked in a Sikkens shop for 17 years. In fact, when he painted his '68 Chevelle he used U-Tech Polybase for the basecoat and was thrilled with its performance-to-cost ratio. Even the Akzo rep told me the biggest difference in cost between the two was because a shop that shoots Sikkens has all kinds of included training, documentation (variances), and labor-reimbursement options included at no charge--some of which are not available to a Lesonal shop at any cost. Trust me, the toners are off-the-hook expensive; a gallon of black toner is well over $300. Shop cost on one particular Sikkens effect toner is something like $450 a pint... and no one makes a pint mix lid. :doh: That toner, by the way, is for a GM green used in the past few years. Perhaps that's what you're shooting? If you've got a paint code, I'd love to look it up tomorrow and see if that's the reason for the expense.

One of my Lesonal shops was the one that told me it was equivalent to the top-drawer PPG and DuPont stuff. I took him at his word as he has experience in this area since we put Lesonal in to replace the PPG, and part of the reason was that after he was comped some paint to try it out, he was hooked. He is a production shop and does some of the best work in the area. His previous employer was a DuPont shop.

So, I bow to your experience in this area as I'm going solely on word of mouth... but it's some pretty-convincing hearsay (the Akzo rep?!).

I've shot two of Akzo's U-Tech products: U200 single-stage and Polybase. As I've said, I've also shot Omni. No comparison in my eyes... the Omni project was so frustrating, I've never finished it. The U-Tech worked so much better... and yes, I used the tech sheets for all as well as the same gun. I'm a novice painter, obviously, but if the results were so much better for me going by what the manufacturer tells me I would think the difference for a true pro like yourself would be even more glaring. I'll probably try the Polybase Plus as well, since its coverage is better than the regular Polybase which covers pretty well in the first place. I want to know my paint line and tell customers, "Yes, I've used this paint and here are the differences." I don't actually mix Sikkens, though. It's just too pricey to sell to the backyard guy, and unlike the old days, every shop has a mix bank. In the late '80s and early '90s, no one had one around here and we were mixing paint all day, then tinting it when it wasn't quite right. Variances were but a dream back then. :doh:

Now, let it be known that I did shoot PPG in the distant past. I messed around with a few body panels here and there, mostly experimenting with color. I wasn't doing an overall, attempting to match anything, or perform a blend. I wasn't even going for a smooth finish--I'd just be happy if it was somewhat shiny. Way back then, it was Deltron and I liked the results I got with rudimentary equipment. That's why I tried the Omni--truth be known, I was already selling Akzo at the time and walked across the street to buy my paint at the PPG store. I'd both sold PPG and used it, I believed in it, and I wasn't at all convinced of the Akzo. It wasn't until I changed stores and Mark told me, "Man if you shot Omni you've been to the depths of hell. Try U-Tech... it's worth learning the product and you won't believe the difference." He was right, and I'm not the only backyard guy he convinced in this area.

I've also sold DuPont, but that's when Dulux lacquer was still available... hell, we still had a shop using it, for God's sake. :D So I can't comment much there. 'Cept I once broke a bottle of activator for Imron and the whole store crew was high as a kite within half an hour. I vowed never to try spraying the stuff as I was pretty sure it's a recipe for central nervous system damage unless you've got really good respiration/ventilation equipment. :D

The Sikkens paint you're using... is it AutoBase Plus or AutoWave? Just curious to find out how quickly waterborne is catching on in your area.
 
Autobase Plus, and it is good stuff.
1956 Mercury, Heath Green. I can't remember the code, but the jobber I buy from couldn't find a formula in his system. They scanned and matched it. Perfect match too.
I used Glasurit on the last Heath Green car we did. I won't even mention that price. Suffice to say ridiculous doesn't even begin to describe it.
I was primarily an ICI painter for 12 of the last 15 years, Been to the school, shadowed the rep on his route, took a lot of Qs from other shops, blah, blah, blah. I know ICI/NEXA inside out. It's the cat's ass.
That being said, the 30 or 40 times I've used any Sikkens or Akzo Nobel paint, I've been impressed. I used the old AutoCryl on a Cascar stocker for a couple years, and it was so versatile and user-friendly, if I hadn't been a "Certified NEXA Refinisher" that paint alone would have been reason enough to seriously consider changing paint lines. The bottom line would have been the big deterant.
Autobase is just as good, if not better. I did a Black 67 LeMans for a guy in Warren, Michigan, and it was one of my best spray jobs ever.
Your rep is right - Sikkens has much more tech support than Lesonal, and that is part of the reason for the higher price. The rest of the reason is better quality (read: higher cost) materials. The same goes for any paint line, from any manufacturer. Ever get someone in your shop yet, bitching about warranty on Lesonal? If you haven't yet, you will. Just laugh at them and tell 'em they shoulda bought the good stuff. :)
Dupont? the best I can say about Dupont is it sprays beautifully, looks like velvet when applied, and covers like water. $$$$$$$$$$. Add to that the fact that the local Napa store is the only retailer here and you now know why it's been years since I've bought any. Sprayed it several times in the last couple years. Bought it, no.
I just dug into the business price list (the first time since '08 I've looked at it) and the last US quart of base I mixed was December 2007, GM Black 8555, and it cost me $71.42.
Far cry from $117.
Like I say, I near shit when he told me the price.
The Omni, well yeah, you're right. I've had good luck with it, but it's not very good compared to U-Tech. I think PPG uses a lot more fillers in their lower lines than anyone else. Even the lowely Nason works better than Omni.
Do you get to go the painter's tech classes when you retail, or do they have a separate jobber class? One of my buddies works at a CQ store and took a couple painter classes instead of the counter-guy classes they wanted to teach him. He says he has new respect for us painters. :)
Almost forgot - waterborne is going over well here. July is the final production date and December, I think, is the final sale date for the "banished" solvent products. Still quite a few un-converted shops and you can't find a paint rep nowadays if your life depended on it, but I think by December, most will be on board.
I've used Autowave a bit, Aquabase, and Sherwin-Williams (can't remeber the name of it tho'). The colour match and lay-down are fantastic and the hype about BIG changes in shops are a bit overblown. Cleanliness, tho' is absolutely critical.
 
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Well, certain colors can cost a lot more than others, as you well know. For the record--I'm not making this up, I'll swear on anything you request, and I'll fax you the invoice--I sold a pint of W8555 Lesonal today and it was $54 plus tax at the counter. I also had my biggest paint customer tell me today that he's switching from Sikkens to Lesonal. He's a production shop, has shot almost all the Akzo stuff (except Wanda), and is convinced that Lesonal is the way to fly when it comes to the bottom line. I consider him a friend as well as a customer, and told him that the ColorScala Pro needs to be a sticking point. In other words, tell the Akzo rep either the shop keeps the ColorScala Pro and Akzo keeps it updated, or when he takes it away he can take the Akzo paint as well and he'll go (insert brand here). The variance system is so much more accurate with Sikkens, and he's a very-reputable production shop. I don't think his guys could fuck up a collision repair if they tried.

I've wanted to go to paint school for quite some time, as a painter and not as a reseller. Every time the opportunity has arisen, I've had to cancel at the last minute because of some sort of store/corporate drama. I don't need to go learn how to sell it--knowing how it works and being able to tell a customer how well it works is far-more valuable. A friend and customer who owns the biggest body shop in town (and used to use Sikkens--long story) has been snuck into plenty of Sikkens classes as a customer. The store across the street has done much of the same trying to get him to put DuPont in his shop, as he currently shoots PPG. According to him, the Sikkens classes are the only ones worth attending. He fell asleep in the PPG waterborne class, walked out of the PPG version of same, and after meeting and talking with the Sherwin-Willams rep presenting their class was convinced the guy couldn't rattle-can a lawn chair and never even attended their presentation. That's not me talking, that's him. I'll provide name and number if you'd like to ask him. This guy went from a 1-man operation in a 26x60 shop to having something like 12 employees on two shifts in a 5000+ square-foot shop in about 8 years. He wants to go back to Akzo, but only wants to make the change when he goes waterborne. He hates PPG, hates their rep, and hates his supplier. Everything not paint-related comes out of my store, so I'd really like to attend both solvent- and water-based training so I can convince him to make the change and come back to Akzo.

Besides, I want to learn how to paint, so I don't have to pay overcharging criminals like yourself. :D Honestly, that's a joke... I do want to learn to paint for myself and will teach myself if necessary, not because I don't want to pay someone to do it but because paint is a large part of my business and I want to have the expertise to maintain and expand on that by knowing my product first-hand. At this point, I'm convinced of the product I sell solely on testimonials and limited experience with the budget paint line (I'm not going to shoot Sikkens on the door jamb of an '81 LeBaron). Put a spray gun in my hand after some class time and I'd sell a lot more of the stuff, no doubt.

Have you ever used Spies-Hecker? I ask solely because one of my best friends went to WyoTech for three terms--Auto Tech, Body Repair, and Street Rod--and at the time, that school would only shoot Sikkens ans Spies-Hecker. According to his instructors, "Everything else is shit." :D Admittedly, that was quite a while back, but suffice to say Kevin was impressed when he found out I was an Akzo jobber.
 
Spies-Hecker. Yes, but way back in '94 at a GM dealership. I didn't do much of the paint work there, other than small parts and touch ups. It was nice stuff as I recall. I remember the number 1 painter there rolled a Buick GN into the booth around 4:30 and by 5 PM it was the shiniest single layer Black paint job I'd ever seen up to that time.
I've Herbert's Standox too. It's a nice system as well, but rep'd very poorly in S.W. Ontario.
You should take the painter's courses, if for no other reason than to be able to bullshit with painters and not get that "you never painted, have you?" look. Seriously, it's a whole different perspective behind the gun. No matter what a sales or tech rep can tell you, there's nothing like having the experience of doing it yourself. The ICI rep used to come into my shop and the one I worked in previously, just to, as he said "talk to someone who knows what the fuck they're doing". :) Great tech guy, but they let him go 'cause his sales ability wasn't up to their standards. He was kinda rough around the edges, but he knows paint better than anyone I've ever met. Big Nascar fan too, Doc. :)
I take every tech or paint class I can get into, which aren't many since I closed the shop. I guess I'm considered persona non grata, or however that goes. The best ones by far, are the ones taught by former painters. Not guys who can paint, but guys who have fucked up jobs and gotten them straightened out before they left the booth. Those are the guys I respect the most and I pay close attention to anything they tell me. I'm like a sponge when it comes to listening to guys like that. SpongeMike DirtyPants? :)
$54 a pint, that's about what it would run here. $65-$80 for a quart?
Any ProSpray in your neck of the woods? Very similar to NEXA, but lower prices. Very nice clearcoats.
 
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